To pull out because of programme at Christmas concert

[Whyamistillawake]

I've been going to a choir since September, most of which has been practising for the Christmas concert this week.

We've just had the final rehearsal in which they've introduced a duet which us two people (not including me) singing 'Baby it's cold outside'.

Am I overreacting to pull out? At the moment I don't see how I can sit there through it.

That's the point isa, many, if not most historical social/cultural attitudes and norms have been upended. Rightly so in my opinion but I think it's important (indeed even a life skill) to be able to critically consider an idea or concept without wholly accepting it to be correct or true.

I didn't quote anyone, Curious. Really? You put a line in italics and then challenged its contents. It read like a quote! Hey ho!

persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/listening-while-feminist-in-defense-of-baby-its-cold-outside/

“the woman gives plenty of indication that she wants to stay the night. At the time period the song was written (1936), “good girls,” especially young, unmarried girls, did not spend the night at a man’s house unsupervised. The tension in the song comes from her own desire to stay and society’s expectations that she’ll go.

.....

As she’s talking about leaving, she never says she doesn’t want to stay. Her words are all based around other people’s expectations of her — her mother will worry, her father will be pacing the floor, the neighbors will talk, her sister will be suspicious of her excuses and her brother will be furious, and my favorite line that I think is incredibly revealing, — “My maiden aunt’s mind is vicious.” Vicious about what? Sex. Unmarried, non-good girl having, sex.

Later in the song, she asks him for a comb (to fix her hair) and mentions that there’s going to be talk tomorrow – this is a song about sex, wanting it, having it, maybe having a long night of it by the fire, but it’s not a song about rape. It’s a song about the desires even good girls have.”

I also sing in a choir, which brings me huge joy. Part of singing musical theatre has involved me coming to an uneasy acceptance that most musicals - those I love and those I dont- are sexist claptrap with crappy treatment and characterisations of women. But I simply cannot fight every single battle with my feminist sword because I'd not be standing at the end. There are too few books/movies/songs that are acceptably feminist and if I had to abandon every joy because it doesn't pass muster I'd be so depressed I'd never have the strength to fight the battles I DO choose to fight.

So, I pick my battles. I choose to get pleasure where I can find it, imperfect though the source may be.

I do get it about that song. Completely. I hate that lovely and seemingly innocent songs I grew up liking in fact have an undertone that I now realise is seedy. But if it were me, I'd let this one pass by without disrupting me or my pals. Maybe make a comment at a different time. It would not be the hill I would choose to die on. It isn't a huge betrayal of feminism to sing songs even if you know they aren't totally great. Take your joy where you can.

It’s not rapey. It’s a different era where girls couldn’t stay out so faux refuse. Look it up.

I find this whole debate absurd. Sexual abuse is horrific. Consent is crucial. This song really isnt worth thinking about though.

My 12yr old daughter got acrylic nails on last week, normal size and shape, no nail polish, just natural, school told her to take them off, I sent a letter to her teacher saying I don't think she should have to remove them but if they insisted I was happy to cut and file them shorter, letter was ignored and in lunch time she was sent to the school beauty salon and they removed them, she missed lunch and was 20 mins late for her next lesson, I've rang the school but goes to yr 7 answer machine , what should I do?

?????

You are massively I ereacting and looking for something that just isn't there.

I think if it makes you uncomfortable to quite a grave degree then you have every right to pull out. No one on MN will truly understand the effect this has on you as we haven't lived your life and felt your feelings. So ignore those who say it's not a bad song or your overreacting. Just do what feels right to you.
Can't take your bad memories away, but I hope you are in a better place now xx

I saw it performed when i was in school. The female part was played up flirtatiously and very cute. Now, i know that the male is/was gay. It's been a favorite since.

"rapey" is a crap word for a serious crime, I'm offended by the use of that word. Victims of violent crimes do not need a "y" at the end of RAPE. We do not need to be protected from songs. Its the horrible Netflix and Hollywood smut that encourages violence. Rap music and rock and roll and disco...when does it end?

When does this stop? It's flirty if you like him, attacking if you don't. That makes sense, but the world seems grim any more. All songs must be sent to p.c. police?

Rape is a horrible act and songs aren't part of it.

I wonder what Frank Loesser and his wife would have made of this thread. When they performed this song at soirées they called their duo "The Evil of Two Loessers" (pron. Lessers). Doesn't sound so innocent now, sadly.

What's everyone's opinion on Fairytale of New York?

I’ve always seen Fairytale of New York as a portrayal of two toxic people, in a toxic relationship, so whilst I understand people finding the language offensive, it is meant to be ugly, a performance of an “anti” fairytale, hence the ironic title.

"You cheap lousy faggot"

if you are not comfortable with it tell them and see what happens. don't just pull out though.

Yes that is the language I’m talking about. Also “old slut”. But these people are not being set up for us to aspire to are they? One’s in the drunk tank and the other is an addict on a drip. It’s a song about awful people having an awful time, in contrast to the usual Christmas stories.

I doubt anyone would sing it at a choir performance and I imagine if they did it would undergo some editing.

Having said that I do think it should be edited more generally for radio - is it already? I can’t say I really listen to it any more. I don’t think that word in particular should be heard generally as it is so offensive. They changed it in the cover version didn’t they?

As far as I'm aware it's still played with it in, I cringe every time. It's a really catchy song but I can't get past that line.

Is "cheap lousy faggot" not offensive, then?

Yes - very offensive - that’s the word we are talking about and why I haven’t typed it. Where did anyone say it wasn’t?

In the Ronan Keating version he sang "you're cheap and you're haggard".

Is "cheap lousy faggot" not offensive, then?

It's meant to be, that's the point. She's insulting him.

I thought you were talking about "old slut on junk".

It's song with a couple of fantastic, creative insults and definitely not to be censored.