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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

That Britain should rethink BREXIT

652 replies

WallisofWindsor · 06/12/2017 12:14

David Davis admitting that the impact of Brexit will be equal to the credit crunch should surely make the country revisit the decision.
Why put your country through such a difficult period?

OP posts:
Crackednips · 07/12/2017 09:56

Its early days curry. What do I mean by sovereignty, the loss of?

Before I get too deeply into it, let me give you an example.

Cameron in the '15 GE pledged he'd reduce immigration. Then after he won it, he went to ask the EU for permission to make good on those promises, they said "no". He had to comply.

Please explain how that is NOT proof of a loss of sovereignty for the people who voted for policies with the expectation they will be realised?

Crackednips · 07/12/2017 09:58

Well said mothertruck.. Good points..

twofingerstoEverything · 07/12/2017 09:59

One of the reasons why I never considered voting leave was that I couldn't see a single person/group with the right degree of leadership, intelligence and vision to manage such a major and complex constitutional change. The incompetency we're seeing is exactly what I anticipated. How anyone can continue to support this shambles is just beyond me.

makeourfuture · 07/12/2017 10:03

your naice middle-class London bubble

I love travelling to London! But I wouldn't know much about it, I don't get there much.

This working class thing....isn't it true that age was actually more of a factor? So this Northern Miner is a bit of a smoke screen?

And could it be that vicious Tory cuts are causing the problems with schools, the NHS and infrastructure - not some mythical Polish Plumber?

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 07/12/2017 10:03

There should never have been a referendum

Why did so many MPs support it when it went through parliament for there to be a vote but they did

But the vote was clear a yes/no to the question and leave won

Politicians will have a vote at the end of the negotiations on the Brexit deal but by that point they will no doubt support, if they don’t they are going against what they voted for themselves and that was for there to be a referendum on us leaving the EU

If they were to ignore the result or call another referendum there would be years of legal wrangling

Unfortunately now it best to get it over with as quickly and as smoothly (which i
It won’t be) as possible our economy is unstable and will be for some time now but ignoring the vote or another referendum will make it prolonged

curryforbreakfast · 07/12/2017 10:03

Cameron in the '15 GE pledged he'd reduce immigration. Then after he won it, he went to ask the EU for permission to make good on those promises, they said "no". He had to comply

That is not what happened though. Cameron made promises that he knew were not possible to implement, due to the EU rules that the UK willingly signed up to. He didn't ask for permission to make good, he knew it was never a possibility. Politician in making promises he can't achieve scandal, shocker! Said no-one, ever.

Please explain how that is NOT proof of a loss of sovereignty for the people who voted for policies with the expectation they will be realised?

Your mistake was believing promises that anyone who knew the laws could tell you were not possible, and should not have voted on those promises. But it doesn't constitute loss of soveriegnity. The UK has always been able to opt out of so much of the EU stuff, but you can't willingly sign up to things and then complain about actually having to do them!

curryforbreakfast · 07/12/2017 10:06

I think you'll find its the EU that's stirring up trouble in NI Cheerios

That is the exact opposite of the truth. The GFA rests heavily on EU membership and cross border agreements, which the UK torpedoed with Brexit, and made no plans for what to do about it.
The EU pours huge amounts of money and support into NI. Are you happy with replacing that?

makeourfuture · 07/12/2017 10:06

Please explain how that is NOT proof of a loss of sovereignty for the people who voted for policies with the expectation they will be realised?

Again, the EU doesn't "do" things to us. We don't "ask them for things".

We are a fully represented Member, with the ability to change and improve things.

makeourfuture · 07/12/2017 10:11

If they were to ignore the result or call another referendum there would be years of legal wrangling

There is no legal wrangling. The Referendum has absolutely no Constitutional validity.

user1486062886 · 07/12/2017 10:12

But we have only 1 vote against 27 other countries with their own agenda

curryforbreakfast · 07/12/2017 10:12

But we have only 1 vote against 27 other countries with their own agenda

Each one of them only has one vote as well, so you have the same as anyone else!

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 07/12/2017 10:14

The question put to the public was very simple no mention of it being advisory

They simply can’t ignore that if they could they would do. The handful of mp’s that claimed we could ignore the result after the referendum are mainly quiet about this now

user1486062886 · 07/12/2017 10:14

27/1 are not very good odds, to get your vote through

makeourfuture · 07/12/2017 10:18

The question put to the public was very simple no mention of it being advisory

Please. Check with anyone with even a hint of Constitutional Administrative Law knowledge - that referendum was not binding.

Even if Parliament passed legislation....it cannot bind itself.

The Constitution is specifically set up this way.

makeourfuture · 07/12/2017 10:20

27/1 are not very good odds, to get your vote through

They are not ganged up against Britain.

This is years and years of us v themism.

Crackednips · 07/12/2017 10:21

due to the EU rules that the UK willingly signed up to But doesn't that rather add up to the same thing? Plus we were never asked..

curryforbreakfast · 07/12/2017 10:23

Do the "loss of soveriegnity" people know that the UK had more opt-outs than any other member? Opted out of Schengen. Opted out of the Euro. Opt out of the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union and all that went with that. Opt out of police and criminal justice legislation, the area of freedom, security and justice, and more.

Where was your soverignity ever compromised in the first place? When the EU expected you to follow rules you helped to make and agreed to follow, which were good for your country?
You were denied the right to bathe in and drink filthy water, with the EU clean water laws. You were denied the right to increase greenhouse gas emissions. The right to drive species of fish into extinction by over fishing. The right to force employees to work more than 48 hours a week....

I could go on, for days. But I would love to know how these laws which you willingly helped to create and agree to follow equate to a loss of soveriegnity? Especially when you could opt out of any of the ones you didn't like......

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 07/12/2017 10:28

Ffs I well aware it was advisory

But that isn’t what was on the ballot paper that isn’t what the public were informed of Cameron stated that he would stand by the result

It won’t happen if there was a slight chance far more MP’s would be pushing for this but they simply aren’t

That ship sailed long ago the public should have been made more aware of the legalities (which they begs the question why have the referendum in the first place)

curryforbreakfast · 07/12/2017 10:31

But that isn’t what was on the ballot paper that isn’t what the public were informed of

How did lots of us magically know this then?

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 07/12/2017 10:38

Because some people take more interest in politics

The majority of people do not

But we live in a democracy and it fails us as times

Crackednips · 07/12/2017 10:40

All member states negotiated opt outs, look at France. Yoiu think the EU was doing us a huge favour?

Yes sovereignty was compromised many times and in many ways, not least the example I gave about Cameron in '15, which by any reasonable measure is a clear example of the loss of sovereignty. There's also the imposition of the ECHR ruling against our parliament that stopped us from deporting Abu Hamza for 7 years. I too could go on all day

I realise you see the EU as an unalloyed force for good and we ought to be happy with being a supplicant member state. Unfortunately it isn't what we voted for. We voted to join an economic community basically on the grounds of free trade being assured that sovereignty wouldn't be lost [notwithstanding closer union fine print] as we were assured parliament and the people could prevent an erosion of any UK sovereignty. Sovereignty of course was lost by salami slicing, this is undeniable.

GretchenFranklin · 07/12/2017 10:41

Look, Brexit is very silly, looking sillier by the day. Ditto the people that voted for it.

That is all.

curryforbreakfast · 07/12/2017 10:41

They don't take an interest, you are right. So why should we have let them decide such a huge thing for everyone?
And why are people are coming on here and saying how dare you call us ill informed about our vote, just because we were completely ill-informed?

If people didn't understand such basic things about what they were voting for, they should not have voted.

curryforbreakfast · 07/12/2017 10:44

All member states negotiated opt outs, look at France. Yoiu think the EU was doing us a huge favour?

UK has multiple times the opt-outs of France. Why would we look at France? Confused

Yes sovereignty was compromised many times and in many ways, not least the example I gave about Cameron in '15, which by any reasonable measure is a clear example of the loss of sovereignty

I've already explained to you how it was not. It's clear you don't understand any of this, and have seized on the soundbite to use to sound more knowledgeable, but you have to be able to back it up with facts.

Is "taking back control of our borders" another soundbite you would like to defend? That's going well so far, isn't it?

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 07/12/2017 10:47

I voted

Have more knowledge than some but I feel very few people have such an understanding of how the EU works I certainly don’t claim to really have that knowledge

But MP’s supported our right to vote on such a complex issue and we did