To be surprised that M&S has a section on their website for Modest Clothing?

[Scabbersley]

here

What's that all about then? Why does it warrant its own category?

I've only seen it in relationship to wedding dresses, they have sleeves and high necklines instead of strapless low cut which most people wear

Why is the only alternative to Modest Unmodest?

Its like saying you have long or short hair. Are happy or sad.

There is a scale.

Evelyn, I'm still not really getting it.

Why can't clothes just come in sizes XXS to XXL (or 0–24, or whatever) without some of them being labelled 'plus'? It wouldn't necessitate customers having to look through vast numbers of items; you'd just select sizes '20, 22, 24, XL, XXL' or whatever when you were putting together a search, just as I select sizes '8, 10, XS, S'.

Sorry, previous post was incoherent.

Rhiannon there would be other ways to ensure an online search only brought up clothes in the relevant size, but I'm an 18 and find it useful to weed out stuff that catches my eye then frustratingly turns out to be "one size" (which means a 12, realistically) but is included on all size searches, or just when filtering by size isn't offered or doesn't work properly.

In store it's even more annoying - I've stood and looked at coats, seen one I really want, gone through them looking for an 18, seen a different coat in an 18 on the next rail and asked an assistant if they have the one I like in an 18, only to be told that the one I want is only made in 6-16. I can buy the one I don't want in an 18 though. If go into a shop with a plus range (or better an independent plus size shop with a plus size owner who chooses nice stock) at least I know they'll have my size in everything!

Bit gutted at the slating those clothes have gotten
I clicked the link and thought “oh right it’s just how I dress” lolllll

There isn't a scale. I think people are deliberately misinterpreting the meaning of modest to fit in with their viewpoint. Clothing which is not modest is immodest. That's it. There's no semi modest or modest lite.

Clothing is big or small.

Or medium.

There's 'modest' or revealing.

But also something in between. Necklines that are neither high nor low. Ditto hem lines. Styles that aren't thin ultra-clingy or loose and layered

"one size" doesn't usually work for me either; it tends to be too big.

'I've stood and looked at coats, seen one I really want, gone through them looking for an 18, seen a different coat in an 18 on the next rail and asked an assistant if they have the one I like in an 18, only to be told that the one I want is only made in 6-16.'

So, if all clothes came in a wider range of sizes rather than only 6–16, this problem wouldn't exist.

Rhiannon that would be lovely. It won't happen though.

I submitted a complaint today about the use of "modest" in that for most people it carries a value judgment and received a suspiciously fullsome apology from M&S.

I rather suspect they have been inundated.

(Yes my complaint was rather more nuanced than the above summary and recognised that "modest" had become a fairly standard term but a market leader could afford to try and break new ground with a more positive name)

I don't think it's all that difficult to buy clothes that are loose/long/have sleeves/are high-necked. I do tend to get that sort of thing for work in cold weather (for warmth) and generally find all I need after a quick run round the nearest charity shop.
Wide-ish trousers and droopy cardigans have been relatively 'in' for years as far as I can tell. As have longer skirts. And I've never noticed a real shortage of shirts/blouses that can be fastened up to the neck.

Having just been to Dubai, I think its a good idea - when going to a Muslim country, as there are times and places, when its nice to show some respect for the host country!

Imo, it is preferable to wear one's own modest clothes than having to wear an abbayeh (which, they give you and is made of some synthetic material) on top of one's own, when visiting a mosque! I can assure you, it is boiling when its only 31 degrees. I can't imagine what it would be like in the summer, when its 50 - 60 degrees!

Furthermore, my niece who works in a school there, is required for instance to wear 3/4 length sleeves at work. At least, expats like her, know where to go on the M & S website, when choosing clothes for work!

I can’t see a reason to get wound up about something like this.

some religions call for modest clothing.....It’s not calling other clothes ‘immodest’ people are far too easily offended.

But that is exactly what it's doing, and it's exactly the reason to get wound up about it.

It's one minority religious culture (or a group of them) subtly imposing a value judgement on the rest of us by giving themselves the label of modest in comparison. In spite of protestations otherwise, It implies that the rest of us have at least a degree of immodesty, a lack of self respect and a lack of decorum. How could it not?

I don't object in the slightest to Muslim women (or anyone else) being able to find clothes that suit their perceived needs. I don't object to M&S including items in their range that reflect that niche but ever increasing market. I just object to M&S toadying up and doffing their cap by using the word 'modest' to describe those clothes, and therefore those women. It's disrespectful and contemptuous towards the majority of their female customer base and it puts those minority religious groups on some sort of assumed moral pedestal.

If the definition of modest is orderly, within bounds, moderate, restrained' then it follows that not dressing 'modestly' would be to dress in a disorderly way, without boundaries, in an extreme and unrestrained way.

That's insulting.

Muslim women are quite capable of walking around a shop until something suitable catches their eye just as much as non-Muslim women. The search engines online already allow you to search by length of skirt etc. There is really no need for this.

I wouldn't expect to see a range of clothes in M&S called 'Sluttish'. Neither would i expect to see a range called 'Prudent'. I wouldn't feel any better about it if the ranges called prudish, sluttish or modest were in both male and female clothing. I don't want to see those words describing clothing collections on the high st.

The word Modest is a value judgement and carries a message. There's no way around this, it just does. Especially in today's political climate i would have thought they'd have avoided this word like the plague tbh.

What fucks me off about this concept of “modest” is that it only ever applies to women. You never hear about men having to dress modestly or protect their modesty.

I managed not to offend while visiting sensitive religious sites abroad recently without having to google modesty clothes ranges first. It's quite easy to work out which clothes will cover up your arms and legs

It’s not calling other clothes ‘immodest’ people are far too easily offended.

@Dippingmytoesin I've seen a mum bullied in the playground by other mums for her "immodesty" in showing her upper arms. Defining what is "modest" and what is "immodest" leads to this. It's not just theoretical offense - it leads directly to women being bullied and shamed for what they wear. I think any woman should be able to wear what they like without such value judgements.

I had significant difficulties finding "modest clothing" suitable for travelling to a conservative middle east country in hot weather. All the stuff I could find was suitable for more temperate / colder temperatures. So I will find this section of the M&S website helpful when it comes to summer clothing.

(Sorry - that was in response to Laiste)

But Ariadne the outfits on that section of the site generally run to: high-necked close-fitting long-sleeved jumper + leggings + skirt + overshirt, or some similar combination - you'd boil in that in hot weather!

"Modest" is an insulting and loaded term. M&S employs marketing experts, it must be within their ken to come up with another label that doesn't imply that wearing an outfit not from this selection is "immodest"

Aridane that is what abayas are for. Wear your normal clothes and just sling one over the top as needed.

I do feel there is a slightly UKIPpy Brexitty subtext to all this though.

As in, 'How dare all these other cultures with their alien dress styles infiltrate our M&S and forbid us our sovereign British rights to wear crop tops and mini skirts and/or skintight leggings in midwinter?'

Incidentally the founders of M&S were Jewish and it's likely that noone of either gender in their families went in for plunging necklines/tight trousers.

Ah well Anna, looks like you've won the internet and the argument by wheeling out the UKIP/Brexit Racist Bigot card. We may as well all pack up and go home with our tails between our legs.