To be surprised that M&S has a section on their website for Modest Clothing?

[Scabbersley]

here

What's that all about then? Why does it warrant its own category?

No, there is clearly no logical reasoning behind labelling baby clothes girl or boy, except that they must believe or know that they sell more that way.

Yes, Conker. 100%.

Anna, I don't really disagree with you on the feeling that one's body is one's own, that these clothes will be useful to women in their working life etc.

It is just the term 'modest' applied to all this that I (and many on this thread) are finding problematic. And it is important.

The pkys size thing is practical. If you're a size 18 it is bloody annoying not to be able to limit your search to things that will fit you, and have to wade through items that look great but require individual inspection to see they are "one size" or only made up to a size 14-16. The same is true if you need long or short leg lengths.

It will never be the case that there are "just clothes" because people want to be able to sort/ filter in this age of huge choice. If one retailer removes categories they will lose out because people will shop where it's easier to find what they're looking for quickly.

Plus not plys

Yes Rhiannon Because M&S are taking what is a religious concept word and using it in a mainstream way. And the words people use often prescribe the way we think about things.

I don't think anyone is suggesting no one should wear these clothes or this style of clothing. We're objecting that 'modesty' as an idea is shown as anything other than a religious one.

I imagine it's a search engine optimisation thing. M&S are aware of clothing lines by other designers which are specifically marketed towards observant religious women. It's a trend which magazines have picked up on and for better or worse it's known as 'modest fashion'. They need to halt their declining sales and also try and draw in younger customsers, many of who may choose to dress in a way which means they are covering up. If M&S called their range something more neutral like 'Prunella' for example, they wouldn't get the Google hits and the sales.

If you measure a certain way you are a size 10, if another way you are a size 22. Its not a matter of opinion.
Well although that is kind of true, it is a whole can of worms. I currently wear clothes in sizes 14 right through to 22. I never have any idea how many XXs to add to my L unless a bust or waist measurement is included.
And one of the biggest reasons that Plus Size is a judgement is that it starts at size 16 for consumers and size 12(ish?) for models. The average British adult woman is apparently size 16 (I thought it was 14 but I just looked it up). So yeah, there is a judgement right there.

I have used modest as a search term for clothes for a few years now, ever since I discovered burkinis. Its not the word I would have chosen but neither is "woman " for a that is woman. Stuff happens, the language grows out of real life. What matters is that it is functional, which modest clothing is.

Fashions frequently change and modest clothing is a recognised term nowadays. Definitely a thing amongst youngsters not just certain religious groups. Many teens/20 somethings I know of are more confident in covering up if they prefer, or wearing loose comfortable clothing, without pressure or judgement (like my friends and I felt growing up) that more skin showing = attractiveness/attention.

(I don't think M&S would bother pandering to religious groups. It's big business and there's plenty of money to be made here. Damn sure the marketing people would be aware of this).

Anna, agreed, but unfortunately they are just perpetuating the use of this word in an inappropriate/alarming context.

Evelyn, that issue would be solved if clothes from all retailers/manufacturers just came in a full range of sizes.

I would find the analogy with long or short leg lengths more convincing if these were called e.g. 'glamorous and model-like' and 'stumpy'.

Surprised they didnt go all out and call it moralwear
@ Munky
I can see their advert now..."Moralwear from M&S; for those who aren't heathen whores"

Modest is a positive that implies a negative elsewhere
Exactly the reason I don't like it. They could just as well called it "covered" or similar. Or better still not have the section at all. I can't articulate it well but I feel uncomfortable with this. Is it that they think women are too stupid to be able to find what they want amongst their site otherwise? Is there a "modest" menswear section too? If not, why not?

The problem is, really, that 'modest' is the last fucking thing anyone, particularly anyone female, should aspire to...
Totally agree ReanimatedSGB

I agree with LilaoftheGreenwood that women need to be very careful what they tolerate because we already have the radical transwomen issue that's potentially dangerous.

IMO the word "modest" is fine when used to mean " not bragging about one's talents or achievements". Used to describe women's clothing, or part of a desk to stop people seeing up your skirt, no thanks.

Rhiannon whilst it would be wonderful if all clothes from all manufacturers came in every size from a 2 to a 30 and in both long and short as well as regular leg in all those sizes for trousers, it will never happen because it isn't economically viable. It wouldn't be even if the patterns could just be automatically scaled up and down without altering proportions but that also has to be done to make clothes fit. If it was the case then of course there'd be no need for plus ranges, but as it the customer's wish not to waste time looking through items not made to their size without any indication of which ranges will fit is legitimate.

Really good article - plus some wonderfully stylish clothes - here!

www.whowhatwear.co.uk/modest-fashion/slide12

I haven't read the full thread (for fear of a fully blown rage) but I will say that Debenhams have been selling hijabs for a number of years now - in stores (I don't know about website) and that those modesty pants that we used to call gym knickers - and loathe - are really popular among the teenage girls at the school where I work. They wear them beneath their skirts; our uniform doesn't allow trousers for girls, which is a whole different issue that also makes me ragey.

That article would suggest demand has surged because young Muslim women now have significant spending power, due to generational shift towards paid work over staying at home.

Also, I am 53 and if I want to wear skintight spandex and a peephole bra then I will do so. Jeans, hoodies, trainers etc for every day, fine - but when I'm going out to an event I want my clothes to be the 100% reverse of fucking modest. I want people to stare, I want them to notice me. This is no time at all for women to be encouraged to conceal themselves and be quiet.

School uniform has always been an area of ridiculousness. So many issues would go away if it were universally scrapped.

" in many ways, modest dressing provides more opportunities for women to dress stylishly." oh do fuck off.

so according to that article it is predominantly a religious thing. And the reason women and girls must cover themselves for religious reasons are misogynistic ones. So I will take issue with anything promoting it.

WhatALoad I totally agree with you. It's the use of "modest" that gets me... as if everything else is immodest. Covered yes, "modest" hmmm...

I've written off an enquiry to M&S about it anyway.

Also, I am 53 and if I want to wear skintight spandex and a peephole bra then I will do so. Jeans, hoodies, trainers etc for every day, fine - but when I'm going out to an event I want my clothes to be the 100% reverse of fucking modest. I want people to stare, I want them to notice me. This is no time at all for women to be encouraged to conceal themselves and be quiet

I think I love you @ReanimatedSGB

I agree. Punk will never die!!

So how do we feel about routinely being exposed - though it's more of a summer thing - to male hairy chests and (any season) male arse cheeks/pants - in low slung jeans.

Is there a sense that part of the male body are better covered?

Do we require a certain kind of modesty from men??

I hate the word. I appreciate women have as much right to cover up as to wear skimpy clothes, but I do hate the implication that I’m immodest.

^“It helps perpetrators to keep victims quiet,” said Tulley, a survivor of sexual abuse herself.

According to Uniform Crime Reports, the rape rate in Utah has been consistently higher than the US rate; it’s the only violent crime in Utah that occurs at a higher rate than the rest of the nation. Tulley said these reported rapes represent only a small portion of the actual numbers. In Utah, she said, the internalized shame runs deep.

“Our [Mormon] culture objectifies women’s bodies. You’re told that if you’re wearing something immodest, you are walking pornography. It’s your responsibility to control how men see you,” Tulley said.

This is reflected in Mormon literature: “Central to the command to be modest is an understanding of the sacred power of procreation, the ability to bring children into the world,” reads the official church website at lds.org. “Revealing and sexually suggestive clothing, which includes short shorts and skirts, tight clothing, and shirts that do not cover the stomach, can stimulate desires and actions that violate the Lord’s law of chastity.”^

www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/29/mormon-women-metoo-particular-challenge-sexual-abuse

Other religions have similar ideas.

Reanimated good for you. But what about people who want to cover up but not wear traditional religious garments? They can make their own choices.

It's an issue if your choice of clothing is no longer available.

I do agree labels should apply equally to clothing marketed at men, but think there is currently far more cropped, short, tight clothing available especially marketed towards younger women than there is covered up, looser clothing that doesn't look scruffy.

The label may be emotive but there is so much choice that people do filter and use labels to do it - range names on the wall inside a shop, store names, website drop down menus and searchable terms mean people find what they want and spend money. If people cannot find at least an indication that they are looking in the right place to find what they want quickly they usually look elsewhere.

Most modest clothes are not particularly stylish as they fit rather like an old sack :-(

Suddenly badly fitting clothes are in fashion.