To be surprised that M&S has a section on their website for Modest Clothing?

[Scabbersley]

here

What's that all about then? Why does it warrant its own category?

It's not points scoring- kosher aisle is for some food that is kosher. There will be lots of food outside that aisle that also is kosher. It's no value judgment on that food.

Modest dept for some clothing that modest. Other departments may also have suitable clothing for those who like to dress modestly. It's no value judgment on that clothing.

If you don't keep kosher or dress modestly (in the religious sense) then you might still want to look in those depts but you know what to expect there.

In mainly Muslim countries, are shops allowed to sell clothes that would not be termed modest clothing?

Lots of countries where I and many others would not be tolerated. At times that applies to the uk.

I do agree that slippery slopes do worry me (in a metaphorical sense as well as literal!). I think at times we do tolerate intolerance when it comes from minority groups and that is not acceptable.

In this case though I think it's just about m&s marketing some clothing to a particular group and I don't see any need to take offence. Tolerance is a balance I suppose and I think in this case, m&s are on the right side of the balance ad a lot of the hostility is based on intolerance of how people who are from different backgrounds dress.

*Calling your own clothes modest is fine - it's your choice.

Big, supposedly non-religious companies calling certain clothes 'modest' is not fine.*

Why? They're not the government, they're just a shop that have no power over anyone. No man who wouldn't normally harass women will start harrassing them because they're not dressed modest by M&S standards. They will call their range whatever sells. I don't know how you can be surprised by a shop using anything for financial gain - that's why they exist, to make money.

Having just RTFT, and asked several friends (not "hard of thinking" as OP so nicely put it - what a classic way to beat opposing views down with a stick when the thread isn't going how you wanted) - no-one cares about this. People have bigger issues to worry about. But then again Mumsnet does get some absolutely bitter arguments over some very petty matters.

Give the number of opposing views that have come up, also from Muslim women quietly trying to explain their POV, this thread smacks of intolerance. "The Western way is right, our shops shouldn't pander to religious minorities!". Newsflash: shops will "pander" to any groups that will buy from them. These groups believe women can dress modestly and immodestly, you believe they can't because the concept is insulting....OK. So why can't you just accept people have differing beliefs?

Ms harry - no idea! Don't see how it's relevant either. No one at all is suggesting that m&s are not allowed to sell anything!

The important thing about Britain is that everyone is tolerated.

Apart from M&S bosses and Muslim women on this thread with differing opinions

Then why does it have to be designated 'modest' dress then? And only in one section? I'm sorry but I do think you are being awkward now. My whole point has been that I object to men telling women that to be 'good' or 'pure' they must dress in a certain way. The inference is that not doing so makes them bad. The whole harlot or Madonna stereotypes. And as most of the major religions are run by/invented by men they get the say on what women do.It is about controlling female sexuality and making women responsible for men's actions, i.e they can't control themselves. If a man gets overexcited by my bare arms then he needs locking up, not for me to cover them.

zsazsa It's a genuine question out of interest.

@zsazsajuju

This forum isn't a normal demographic though, a lot of people get het up about "issues" hete that no-one IRL gives a flying rats arse about

Fields - with you on that. There is more than one way to be a feminist and I love that we have freedom to dress as we choose in the uk. We should not be dismissive of women from other cultural backgrounds or think that intolerant regimes somehow justify our own bigotry.

Doe anyone know if clothes that are not classed as modest in the religious sense are sold in mainly Muslim countries? If not, is it because lack of demand or because it is not allowed?

Okay zsazsa I understand what you are saying now. Some food is kosher/halal, some food is neutral, some food is haram or whatever the Jewish version of haram is. Point taken.

With so-called modest clothing the kosher food thing doesn't really work as an analogy though, does it?

Apart from undergarments or things that are intended to be worn only in private, or in female only spaces, like nightwear, or gym wear in a women only gym, there are no neutral clothes for women looking to dress 'modestly.' There is no clothing version of the neutral banana that doesn't need a certified halal/kosher sticker.

There are only clothes deemed suitably modest, and everything else is unacceptable because it is not modest enough.

No man who wouldn't normally harass women will start harrassing them because they're not dressed modest by M&S standards.

No, but he'll harass her because she's not dressed modestly by his standards.

And when M&S start validating and promoting his standards, that's the edge of the slippery slope.

Louis - it's where you will find particularly modest clothing I would think. Other modest clothing (e.g. A coat) will be elsewhere and clothing that may or may not be modest (e.g. Underwear) will also be elsewhere. Don't think it's anything to get upset about. No one is saying you're not pure just cos there's a section of m&s with longer hemlines! It's not personal.

Msharry - I don't know, am no expert but don't think so because all clothing could be considered immodest. E.g. Vest top if on its own but not if under a shirt. Muslim women in certain countries would tend to cover their clothing entirely with an abaya, etc in certain countries. So there could be anything under there. I know that in Syria there used to be a real fashion and market for quite "sexy" underwear regardless of community but obviously its covered in public.

I love that idea of sexy stuff underneath zsazsa . I hope you don't mind me asking but I'm just curious . If at home a Muslim woman is dressed in regular clothing and a visitor arrives, does she have to cover up or go into another room?

Sorry don't mean to derail!

Astrid - I think it does work as an analogy. Here's some stuff that's kosher. Kosher stuff will also be elsewhere. Some of the stuff elsewhere in the supermarket will not be kosher. But doesn't mean anything is wrong with it. Also whether or not it's ultimately kosher depends on what you do with it when you get home (e.g. Milk and meat separate).

Same as modest clothing really. Here are some clothes which might suit your requirements.

To some degree whether something is kosher or not or modest or not will also depend on your own interpretation too.

There is no justification of harassment at all implied or expressed.

Ms harry - depends on the person I suppose. I'm Jewish but have Muslim friends who cover to different degrees in different situations.

Thanks zsazsa My DDs have many Muslim friends from school but i never get to see them because they are not allowed to come to birthday parties etc, it's such a shame.

I agree with Astrid , we are allowing men to consider what is modest . If I asked that men should not be allowed out unless they wore blinkers so they could not look at women and had to wear a chastity belt and had to have their hands tied up so they could not assault anyone what would you think? By calling it modest we are saying men have the say-so on what women wear and that is the point I keep making! Men make the rules ! Women are seen as the problem. All religions at some point have designated what women should wear , it's not new, but I had hoped that we no longer had to be pointed to modest clothing so that we are not the problem.If I am upset it is because I find it crazy that M&S are validating the belief that women are the problem.

I agree Lois it feels as though we are playing to this rather than trying to break down these barriers and modernise thoughts around sexism in religion.

For me, as I have said before, it's the name that I dislike.Particularly as the clothes in that range show no skin at all. This makes a statement that you can only be modest by not showing any skin.

they're just a shop that has no power over any one

A tad naive perhaps? A massive household-name retailer with branches all over the country? If M&S promotes and normalises the notion that some clothing is 'modest' and the rest is, by implication not modest, it is part of a drip-drip approach to moralizing over and policing women's choices.

It is sexist. Can you think of any other reason why there isn't an equivalent men's 'modest' section.

The religious or cultural rules that give rise to this notion of modest female dress are sexist. No point pretending otherwise. However, people are free to practise a religion that is a bit sexist, very sexist or horrifically sexist- totally their choice. But why should those rules about dress - rules that have no logical reason to exist outside of a patriarchal religion - have any space in a secular setting?

If M&S want to sell a range that explicitly caters for religious groups- well, ok - why not? But NAME IT. Name it properly. Don't choose a word that implies you have bought into the moral value judgements about women that we are desperately trying to eradicate.

Of course M&S can call it modest or moralwear or whatever misogynistic label they want to come up with.
They can - but, equally, we can object.

I won't 'chillax' about it, no.

Newsflash: shops will "pander" to any groups that will buy from them
no they wont
if by appeasing one group of customers they alienate a larger group then it may not be in the interests of M&S to bow the the dictates of religion

I hope everyone that feels this way has emailed M&S...

That's sad ms harry. At my dc recent birthday party we had quite a diverse mix of kids of different religions having great fun together. I hope it doesn't change as they get older but I fear it might to some degree.