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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be surprised that M&S has a section on their website for Modest Clothing?

934 replies

Scabbersley · 29/11/2017 09:07

here

What's that all about then? Why does it warrant its own category?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
CharisMama · 02/12/2017 17:15

I quite like some of it! But I would prefer it weren't named ''modest''. That is bleurgh!

shhhfastasleep · 02/12/2017 17:19

"modest" is just a name for a style - like "retro" or "vintage ". As pp said it's generally for Muslim women because dress shouldn't show shape or much skin. Female followers of other religions use it too.
It's a market M&S is tapping into.

MsHarry · 02/12/2017 17:20

I know zsazsa it's because there might be boys there ( they are 13/14) na fit was a home pizza party supervised by us. It's commonplace unfortunately and it means that friendships have difficulty deepening. The girls tend to mix with there 'own kind' in class. I find it very sad.

zsazsajuju · 02/12/2017 17:20

Actually I would say that men's clothing is usually modest in the uk anyway. It doesn't tend to be short or "low cut" generally anyway. So I would say as a general point most of the stuff in the men's section would be considered modest anyway if women wore it (not trousers for Jewish women but they would for Muslim women). Perhaps men's clothing is more designed with comfort in mind or they are less objectified.

MsHarry · 02/12/2017 17:20

their!

MsHarry · 02/12/2017 17:21

Can men wear short sleeve shirts?

TheGoldenBowl · 02/12/2017 17:22

shhh
Umm have you read the thread?

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 02/12/2017 17:22

zsazsajuju
Fields - with you on that. There is more than one way to be a feminist and I love that we have freedom to dress as we choose in the uk. We should not be dismissive of women from other cultural backgrounds or think that intolerant regimes somehow justify our own bigotry

No one on here has done what you say.

No one has been dismissive of women from other backgrounds other than you and posters going la, is, is can't hear and insisting there is nothing wrong in calling clothes "modest".

zsazsajuju · 02/12/2017 17:23

Yeah, as long as it's to the elbow or thereabouts. Same as women. I suppose some men's shirts might not comply with that.

AstridWhite · 02/12/2017 17:23

MsHarry yes she would. In most Muslim countries the houses are designed differently to have two separate reception areas. The one nearest the front would typically be where the man would entertain his male guests and visiting women would go to the back to see the lady of the house. That way it is unlikely that any visiting male is likely to glimpse the lady of the house in her relaxed, uncovered state.

Depending on how traditional and observant they were it would be likely they would never mix socially as couples, unless they were each blood related in some way, which is quite common. First cousins marry one another a lot. Obviously some families observe these social mores much more strictly than others, but that is generally how it is expected to work in many conservative (by our standards) Muslim communities.

Most women in very observant families would not be seen uncovered, or speak to (other than in a professional or official capacity) by any men they were not either married to or related to by blood. Obviously she could speak to a shopkeeper or a doctor or her male driver / gardener or whatever, but things are usually organised so that there are always chaperones, witnesses etc, and unrelated men and women are rarely left alone together or seen in a social setting, at least not without their spouses.

If someone calls unexpectedly and a Muslim woman who covers is alone she would definitely put on her hijab and/or abaya/chador or whatever before answering the door, or possibly not bother to answer the door at all. Many women would not risk being seen engaging with a man on her doorstep unless her husband, father or another trusted witness/chaperone was present.

It's a bugger for people who just want to read the meter.

MsHarry · 02/12/2017 17:24

I thought the koran said men and women should dress modestly, not just women. So, why can women not sure skin but men can?

MsHarry · 02/12/2017 17:25

show skin

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 02/12/2017 17:25

zsazsajuju
Actually I would say that men's clothing is usually modest in the uk anyway. It doesn't tend to be short or "low cut" generally anyway. So I would say as a general point most of the stuff in the men's section would be considered modest anyway

Please point us to the men's clothing "modest section" then.

Why does only female clothing have to be marketed as "modest"?

TheGoldenBowl · 02/12/2017 17:28

Perhaps men's clothing is more designed with comfort in mind or they are less objectified

Well, yes - it's both, isn't it?Confused

But it's not what the clothes are like that's the problem. The clothes are not the problem !! It's the word.

If some people are still sitting here trying to work out which clothes are modest and which aren't, they're kind of missing the point. Some clothes cover more skin than others. To equate that with a moral virtue is to venture down a very murky path.

zsazsajuju · 02/12/2017 17:28

I'm not going Lala at all. I'm just pointing out that tolerance is a balance, people have different perspectives and women have the right to dress as they choose. And that there's nothing wrong in calling some clothing modest- it doesn't say anything about other clothing or people who choose to dress in whatever manner they like.

TheGoldenBowl · 02/12/2017 17:31

This thread is bit like banging your head against a brick wall, isnt it?

All clothes, freeely chosen= fine

Using a morally-loaded word to categorise women's clothes = not fine.

It's the word that's a problem. The. Word.

zsazsajuju · 02/12/2017 17:32

And m&s clothing marketing has nothing to do with moral virtue! You're being ridiculous. My response re shirts was in reference to a Jewish religious perspective . If Jewish or not Jewish people want to Cover to the elbow or not they can do as they choose.. I suppose it would be relevant though if you were going to a religious occasion to be aware what the rules are to be respectful to that community.

zsazsajuju · 02/12/2017 17:33

I don't find the word problematic as I said. I think you are looking at it from a narrow perspective.

AstridWhite · 02/12/2017 17:38

I think most of us have given up on that score Golden Sad

There are none so blind as those who won't see. Or don't want to see because its a bit awkward. So they just keep talking in parallel to the real issue as if that counts as properly engaging with it.

TheGoldenBowl · 02/12/2017 17:39

No, I'm looking at it from a feminist perspective.

Women shouldn't have moral terms applied to their clothes. Should they?

If, as you say, M&S marketing has nothing to do with moral virtue, why pick a word that has A LOT to do with moral virtue?

TheGoldenBowl · 02/12/2017 17:42

(That was to zsazsa)

AnnaMagdalene · 02/12/2017 17:46

I think the problem with the M&S 'modesty shorts' not renamed 'seamless shorts' is that was seen as sexualising female children's genitals.

Perhaps society has become more uncomfortable about girls' bodies - as there didn't used to be some demand that they should wear a double layer in order to cover this area.

However 'modest fashion' is aimed at adults and isn't about underwear. So in this context, I'd say the word has slightly different connotations.

As this debate shows modesty means different things to different people.

LoislovesStewie · 02/12/2017 17:57

And for me words have meanings! Which is why we have laws about hate speech, otherwise I could say really offensive things to anyone , ( I won't give examples) and then say' it's just words'. The saying sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me ' has always seemed to be nonsense in my view. As I've stated before; words start wars, bring hurt and cause any other amount of problems. Words are not meaningless. This whole thread is proof of that.

TheGoldenBowl · 02/12/2017 18:07

modesty means different things to different people

Well, up to a point... It has an actual meaning. In relation to clothes, it's a pretty fair bet that its meaning is tied up with women being demure and morally pure. And that meaning takes us on a fascinating tour of misogyny, male control of women and victim blaming. No thanks.

LoislovesStewie · 02/12/2017 18:18

I'm done; I'm cracking open a bottle of wine.