To be surprised that M&S has a section on their website for Modest Clothing?

[Scabbersley]

here

What's that all about then? Why does it warrant its own category?

I agree with you anna - very often it's man taking and twisting religion and (guess what!) using it to control women. The net result for women is the same though

I always thought "opium" was the wrong drug in the famous quote. Religion doesn't just tame the masses and make them sleepy - it can also whip up massive ears and problems!

Ears?!?! Wars, that should say 🙈

Massive ears can be a problem...

DP says mine are massive

They're really not, it's just that his are tiny.

Marks and Spencer's are doing this presumably because they believe that pandering to religious sensibilities will be good for profits

Anna; I've read the article and in the replies there is still some idiot with a theology degree who thinks that women are responsible a man's lust. So yet again it seems to me that women are the guilty parties.I did read the whole article BTW. It still seems that to many women are sinful and only 'good' if they cover up. I'm sorry but I still see it as an issue that only women are taught to be 'modest' , men get away with it all the time.

I really hope that some of the posters who have argued so vociferously that it is absolutely fine to call a range of clothing 'modest' have at least considered why it actually might not be fine for some.

I can only imagine that some of the "it's fine" contingent simply hadn't analysed the issue before, and that the rest do actually adhere to a belief system that teaches modesty for women and all that entails. If you choose to believe that, obviously you're free to... but please remember that your 'modesty' is an idea based on belief, not a fact. It's not right to spread this idea in a non-religious context.

Wearing any clothes is fine - skimpy, long, fully-covered - whatever.

Calling your own clothes modest is fine - it's your choice.

Big, supposedly non-religious companies calling certain clothes 'modest' is not fine.

This is basically it.

I'm not sure why it needed spelling out though. No one here has been saying anything different; no one has been 'intolerant' of other people's choices/religion/culture.

this is an interesting article about the concept of Modest Fashion.

If there's one thing all of the women I spoke to agree on, it's this: There is no one definition of what modest fashion means, but it essentially relates to having a degree of awareness when it comes to covering up parts of your body.

Well I've been having a degree of awareness of that my whole life. I don't think I've ever been what might be called 'skimpily dressed',' it's just not my thing.

Besides which, this is completely at odds with what M&S have done, by following a very rigid set of rules about what modesty in clothing should look like, ie. no skin on show at all except for face and hands.

I'll be honest, I have my own personal thoughts on what might make an outfit modest, or immodest. In fact it might be fairer and more accurate to say 'appropriate' or 'inappropriate' for the occasion. I don't think there are any wrong clothes, only wrong occasions for them.

For me, a modest outfit would be one that was practical, unassuming and not intended to make people notice me. Note I said people, not men. It doesn't have to be a sexual attention thing, just an attention thing.

So imagine my surprise to find that the vast majority of clothes I personally consider to be pretty modest aren't considered modest at all by M&S, because someone can see my ankles or my elbows, or a bit of upper chest/lower neck area. Never mind that they might be the dullest, least attention seeking, least sexy clothes ever, I am being told they don't count as modest because apparently it isn't about what I think. Never mind that I am about as typical of M&S's core market as it's possible to be. I don't get to decide what modest means to me. I need to be told.

And it means being fully covered from the chin down to the feet.

Back to the article:

"While I believe it will continue to grow naturally, as it caters to a particular woman, not a culture or a religion, I also believe modest fashion shouldn't even be labelled," says Bashir. "It should be seamlessly be integrated into the industry."

And that comes from one of the most well known Muslim Modest Fashion influencers.

What a shame she wasn't advising M&S.

If you are so upset about it contact marks and spencers and say something

I have. And I imagine I'm not the only one.

Well done

I don't find the word "modest" in any way offensive as I am well familiar with its use in a particular context. I can understand that if people are from a different background they might have a different understanding of what it means but I would encourage tolerance and understanding of what it means in other contexts and what it is aimed at. I don't think overall it is offensive.

I don't think getting over literal or involved in dictionary definitions is helpful. You don't need to wear "officewear" exclusively to the office, or "activewear" exclusively to exercise. Just because some clothing is marketed as modest doesn't say anything about you or any other clothing. A petite section doesn't mean everything else is for hephalumps. A kosher aisle doesn't mean everything else is some sort of filthy unfit food(or even that it isn't kosher). Chillax

I think people are making too much of it and unfortunately I think for many this is due to intolerance of different cultures and religions.

Zsaz - as a white women who lived alone and went out with various men without marrying them and drank alcohol and wore short skirts and even now won't be getting married to her partner despite having a child - how much tolerance could I expect from all religions and cultures?

um...actually, for anyone who keeps kosher, (or halal) it does mean that everything else is some sort of filthy unfit food. That's the whole flipping point.

Rebecca - dunno how much tolerance you can expect, depends on person I suppose. I treat others with respect regardless of their religious or cultural background but not everyone of my religious or cultural background or others do. I'm not responsible for them nor is bigotry acceptable because others are intolerant to you or you perceive that they are.

Ofc everyone should treat others with tolerance and respect regardless of their religions or how they dress. That's exactly what I am saying.

Astrid - that's silly. Food that's not in the kosher aisle may still be kosher (e.g. Vegetables). Also non kosher food is just not acceptable within the rules for someone who keeps kosher. It's no judgment at all on the food acceptable for those who don't.

There's probably an 'immodest' section in a department store in a predominantly modest clothed country as we speak.

I don't know why we keep being told we don't understand what 'modest' means . I do!!! and as I keep saying if it's not modest dress then what is it? Immodest of course! And that has connotations.

And why do we keep talking about kosher food?

okay zsazsa I think you are splitting hairs for the sake of point scoring now. Of course I know that a carrot or a banana is kosher, I am talking about food where it can either be prepared/slaughtered in a kosher way, or not, and food (or food combinations) that are deemed not kosher at all, irrespective of how they are prepared or slaughtered.

It's not necessarily immodest even in a religious sense tho just cos it's not in that section. Like the kosher aisle I would expect to see modest clothing in other bits of m&s.

You can be offended by anything- calling some clothing modest to appeal to a particular market doesn't mean anything about other clothing or other people who don't dress like that. To take it as some sort of personal insult is a huge overreaction.

sorry I meant the banana its not designated as kosher, because it doesn't need to be, it's kosher by default.

The point is that there are many countries where I would not be tolerated. In fact very bad things would happen to me because of how I choose to live and dress. The important thing about Britain is that everyone is tolerated.

To me this feels like a slippery slope for judging women and it makes me nervous.