To be surprised that M&S has a section on their website for Modest Clothing?

[Scabbersley]

here

What's that all about then? Why does it warrant its own category?

I was told to 'go home' by a Jamaican. I'm peely wally Scottish.

I’ve never seen it and neither have my family or friends.

Are you claiming it doesn't happen, fuzzy?

FWIW there may be some self-selecting going on. A friend who came here from Iran chose not to send her kids to the school where the upper-arm shaming happened - she's devout, but doesn't wear a hijab, and didn't want her daughters to be subjected to any peer pressure. "I came to London to get away from all that" was the way she put it to me.

I really think this is extending a truth to cover something different and risking discrediting the truth.

Orwell is very relevant to the attempt to change the meaning of the word woman, especially because it is a case of insisting something is what it is not and branding all those who think otherwise thought criminals.

Even if you accept that there is a problem with using modest as a name for a collection of clothing that happens to be fairly modest, it is not Orwellian.

name and your business.'
'My name is Alice, but —'
'It's a stupid name enough!' Humpty Dumpty interrupted impatiently. 'What does it mean?'
'Must a name mean something?' Alice asked doubtfully.
'Of course it must,' Humpty Dumpty said with a short laugh: 'my name means the shape I am — and a good handsome shape it is, too. With a name like yours, you might be any shape, almost.'..... There's glory for you!'
'I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. 'Of course you don't — till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'
'But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.'

He was on drugs when he wrote that though I

I'd agree, except that I dare say the majority of religeous people come from religeous families, in other words have been brainwashed (for want of a better word) from birth. So in the context of these religeous women "choosing" what they wear, by the time they are old enough to "choose" and buy their own clothes they are well and truly trained to behave in a certain way. Even if they won't upset their families by dressing immodestly, they think they'd upset their god, so, do they really have a free choice? I don't

If someone forces someone to do something the problem there is living with someone who is possessive and oppressive.

Plenty of women who come from Muslim non religious families choose to cover. Plenty of women come from Christian families with no Islamic background choose to cover.
If you have DC try forcing something on them, do you think it will work? Sooner or later they will fight back.

If this is something forced you will see less and less women who cover. Marks and Spencer have launched modest clothing because the numbers are increasing, Please open your mind before you make these sweeping comments, you are insulting the women who are freely practising what they believe.

No evidence to suggest he enjoyed anything stronger than sherry. It would also have been quite hard to be a respected Oxford don specialising in Mathematical Logic if permanently high.

Lewis Carroll would have observed laudanum being used - because it was so widespread at that time. (It's more that the 1960s counter-culture found the surreal elements of Alice inspirational).

Muslim here! Modest is fine to say. People pay too much attention to words. It just comes up in google searches easier. Covered is fine too. But its nice to see that they have somwthing for everyone. So now i dont have to trowel through everything to see if it looks like it could be a bit see through or long enough etc. The amount of times i have ordered stuff and i just couldnt wear it. Not able to get to the shops so do most things online. If you dont like it. Dont buy it and buy what you do want. No need to get het up about it. Yes we teach girls to wear what they want. So let people who want to wear this wear it and feel good about it. People need to stop gettong offended by so much

Modest is fine to say. People pay too much attention to words

No, sorry, you cannot pay 'too much attention' to words. They are important and 'bad' language (IYSWIM; not swearing!) is insidious.

Value judgements need questioning.

I get what you are saying but most people looking for covered clothes will put modest into their search. So this is m and s just marketing to the sect of people this is aimed at. They arent trying to shame anyone. They havent marked all other clothes as imodest

People pay too much attention to words
Ha! Tell that to George Orwell.

They havent marked all other clothes as imodest

No, not literally, but that's part of the point, isn't it?

No its not the point. The point is they are extending to another part of the community. No ones forcing anyone to buy it.

They are marketing. Thats all.

What sort of clothes are marketed to non Muslims in Muslim countries, children? What would they be called?

Clothes i am guessing. But we arent in a muslim country. Maybe it was a poor choice of words. But its not really going to hurt any one is it... my nan is atheist. And she likes modest clothing. Is that bad... she likes the term modest. But shes probably classed as old fashioned. And no ones allowed to be like that any more... everything is just too PC. Not just about this. But about most things. People are worried about offending me due to my beliefs a lot. I am very rarely offended. I had someone today asking if their child could give mine a xmas card. Ofcourse they can! Its a card and thankfully received. I find most people are offended on behalf of others. Or maybe im just mad

Think im kind of missing the point now. I have said my piece. As you were...

The problem is that some of us who wear what most would consider normal clothes (jeans and v neck t-shirt, for example) have been called names, spat at, shouted at and hassled in other ways for daring to wear said clothes. In the UK. In 2017. Because exposing an upper arm is deemed "immodest"

I am sorry that has happened to you. That is not on. But i have equally been called awful things for wearing a scarf on my head. Been called a terrorist. A paki. All sorts. I am white british and i converted. I wear what i want to wear. Both situations are the same. And i woukdnt deem your attire imodest. Its your style and clothing that you are confortable in. As is mine. We all need to stop worrying about what everyone is wearing imo

People pay too much attention to words.

No. Language is very, very powerful.

It's only fairly recently that the idea of shaming women for their clothes has been challenged - there are still plenty of people who think that someone who is sexually assaulted while wearing a mini skirt was somehow 'asking for it'.

It's only ever women who have some kind of morality attached to their clothes, 'Modest' reinforces the idea of morality and is inherently sexist.

It's pretty bigoted to say religious people have been brainwashed not to mention intolerant. I am from a religious group that has a thing for modest clothing- that's what we call it, modest.

Some of my extended family dress like that all the time and although I usually just wear whatever (officewear, jeans, etc) if there was a religious or family occasion I would wear modest clothes so that's what I would look for. In the same way as I would look for "activewear" or "officewear" as appropriate. So m&s are just looking to appeal to the modesty market and there is no reason why they shouldn't.

Ofc people shouldn't be spat at, shouted at, etc for wearing "normal" clothes but nor should women be bullied or harassed because they want to cover up more.

Sometimes I (and many others), like to dress in a particular way. That doesn't say anything about how you should dress or what you wear. In fact it's really nothing to do with you. Try to tolerate those who are different from you and doing you no harm whatsoever.

Modest is fine to say. People pay too much attention to words

There are women on here for whom "modest" is not fine.

As for people pay too much attention to words" - as others have said language is powerful. You can see that everyday on threads in just about every section on here.

Ofc people shouldn't be spat at, shouted at, etc for wearing "normal" clothes but nor should women be bullied or harassed because they want to cover up more

No one on here has said women who want to cover up should be bullied or harassed. What a straw man argument.

Your adoption in relation to women's clothes does not exist in a vacuum.

You are right. Words are powerful. Im sure m amd s used the word modestly in an innocent manner. But others have now changed it to mean that m and s are trying to shame those who dobt wear this clothing. So actually you have given the word power and a theory, for lack of better word, behind it.