To be surprised that M&S has a section on their website for Modest Clothing?

[Scabbersley]

here

What's that all about then? Why does it warrant its own category?

There's not a "Specially for Nice Modest Women - Get Out You Sluts" section on shop floors.

Lol exactly.

And if you think "modest" is implying the above...it isn't.

I didn't find any of those "imaginary" categories offensive either.

Oh come on - I thought you had a first in Maths? Let me explain it to you again.

The question was not whether you found the categories themselves offensive, but how might a woman who covers for religious reasons feel, being excluded from ALL of those categories based on someone else's perception of what they should mean.

Shouldn't she get to define what those words mean to her, without having someone else tell her who and what she is, or cannot be, based on their own rigid thinking?

Lost what? It's not a war hmm

Your credibility. And any debate.

Wow look at yolo, self appointed arbitrator of winners and losers

Did you read the definitions of "modest"? Personally i don't fancy any of them, or the obvious implications for garments that aren't "modest". Especially the definition that is clearly the most pertinent, about avoiding impropriety or indecency for sexual reasons.

Or does a maths degree allow you to ignore plain English?!

"Some women choose to wear clothes that cover most of their skin, this section is designed for them. It's entirely fine to display as little or as much skin as you want to, and we respect the rights of others to make their own choices too."

That merely props up the division into women who behave modestly and those who don't with no explanation. You are keeping the loaded term.

@rebecca, you have stooped to being rude and personal so I have no interest in engaging. Come back when you can have a reasoned argument without resorting to petty insults.

For those posters who don't own a dictionary

^(of a woman) dressing or behaving so as to avoid impropriety or indecency, especially to avoid attracting sexual attention.
‘the modest women wear long-sleeved dresses and all but cover their faces’^

Um, yolo - I didn't make the original remark you were objecting to.

Still no comment on the meaning of the word modest?

What a surprise you no longer wish to engage when you don't have an answer 😂😂

This is just bollocks DM islamophobic scaremongering

Astrid said nothing about Islam. Guess you must be unaware of the myriad of accusations made against rape victims concerning their clothes?

So...**@astrid, you think millions of women worldwide shouldn't use this word anymore because you think it implies something bad about you? I don't really think we should be dictating to millions of women what they should and shouldn't label their clothes as.

No, I think millions of women worldwide should carry on calling their style whatever they want to call it and defining themselves exactly how they choose.

I just don't think M&S should be telling me and millions of other women which of their clothes are or are not modest, based on the opinions of a relatively small number of religiously observant women in the UK. I am more than capable of making my own mind up about what modesty means to me thanks.

You're upset M&S is validating a word that many women see their clothing as? So you don't like this word and think women shouldn't call "covered" clothing "modest"? So you're telling millions of women their definition of this word is disrespectful to you because it implies you're "immodest"?^

What about the women bullied for their "immodesty" in not dressing in clothes like the M&S range, YoloSwaggins? It's not about whether you personally are or aren't offended, it's about whether it contributes to harm in the real world, which it does.

OED definition of modest in relation to female clothing:

(of a woman) dressing or behaving so as to avoid impropriety or indecency, especially to avoid attracting sexual attention.

So M&S clearly think that you are not doing enough to avoid attracted sexual attention or impropriety if you things that show your elbows or your ankles or your collar bone.

wear things

I think yolo is long gone! I'd like to hear what a proponent or even a "i don't mind" poster thinks of the definitions though.

This is just bollocks DM islamophobic scaremongering.

YoloSwaggins I have already described on this thread that I have personally seen a mum shamed and bullied in the playground by other mums for her "immodesty" in showing her upper arms. I have also described how a family member no longer goes clothes shopping on her own in her favourite local shopping area because she's tired of being harrassed by young men for her "immodesty" in not covering her head. In each case the women being bullied and shamed have a faith.

Might not happen to you, but it certainly happens.

Who cares who wrote the scriptures, why can't an individual believe what he or she want to believe?

I'd agree, except that I dare say the majority of religeous people come from religeous families, in other words have been brainwashed (for want of a better word) from birth. So in the context of these religeous women "choosing" what they wear, by the time they are old enough to "choose" and buy their own clothes they are well and truly trained to behave in a certain way. Even if they won't upset their families by dressing immodestly, they think they'd upset their god, so, do they really have a free choice? I don't think so.

Load - it's also interesting to read from an informed poster above that women in countries where they have no choice can't wait to be rid of these garments.

Whatalodofbollocks that’s an excellent argument to oppress people. Yeah they’re too stupid to choose for themselves, we the enlightened ones will force our opinions on them because we’re right.

I’ve read of so so so many women on here who hate showing arms/legs/back whatever and are upset that they have to conform to societal norms.

I don’t come from a paticularly religious family, mums religious in that she prays a lot, but she wears traditional Indian clothes, my youngest sister could pass for a Kardashian, middle sister wears a slightly toned down version of younger sister (she doesn’t have the flair for fashion of youngest sister) second sister flits between full on veil to fusion fashion model look (still looking for what she finds comfortable), I wear ‘modest clothing’ and hijab.

We choose what we wear, because we have exactly what you have the choice, and luckily for me I can pick and choose what I want between English and Indian styles and nobody in my family at least give a flying rats arse.

I do think the objection is good old fashioned Islamophobia.

I’ve googled modest dresses before and have come up with Mormon or christian clothing. You can have sexy clothes you can have modest fashion.

It’s a fashion gimmick, bet M&S hasn’t had quite so many websit hits in the past year it has over the last week.🙄

Archeryannie, I’ve lived amongst a religious community and have never come across the kind of bullying you describe. My kids go to a religious school and some mums are fully veiled and some turn up dressed to nines uncovered and wearing clothing mums on here would judge. Nobody gives a shit.

Fuzzy - and I live in central London and I've had 2 quite upsetting experiences of being judged for wearing western clothing by women in "modest" dress. It very much happens. Sadly.

I went to an all girls school which had a large Muslim population and I definitely got sneered at by a few girls for not being dressed "modestly" so the term really jars with me. Aside from anything, I find it perplexing that wearing a shapeless school uniform in a totally female environment could be considered immodest in anyway - but apparently being able to see the shape of my kneecaps through opaque tights made me a harlot.

I also live in London and work in central London. I’ve never seen it and neither have my family or friends.

School girls can be a cliquey but again I never experienced it at school either, we had a school uniform policy of either traditional skirt and blouse and blazer or Indian salwar kameez and blazer for girls who wanted. Nobody ever got bullied or sneered at for their clothing. There was sneering over designer trainers etc my parents couldn’t afford them. But nothing over actual uniform.

But you say that you wear modest clothing and hijab so maybe the reason you have never seen it is that it was never aimed at you? As a white British woman I've never been told to "go home" by some Britain First twat but I don't disbelieve people who tell me it has happened to them.

Either way, the point is that some of the people who valued and prioritised modesty in women's clothing saw my non-conformity to their standards as a way to make a value judgement against me.

The very fact that the naming has caused this conversation is surely reason enough for M&S to change it. Please M&S take heed before you lose even more customers.

Anyone who doesn't believe that the naming is important should do a bit of self-education on the power of language...Orwell is a good start.