To be surprised that M&S has a section on their website for Modest Clothing?

[Scabbersley]

here

What's that all about then? Why does it warrant its own category?

What nonsense. Do you seriously think we invented this?

Neither does yours. We should be able to wear what we like without harassment. Intolerant assumptions about women who dress modestly have certainly been made on the thread (brainwashed etc) and women who dress like that are routinely harassed (whether on racial or religious grounds or generally). Modest is not an offensive term ffs. It really isn't.

Zsa - what is the opposite of modest?

M&S should change the name as it really infers clothing not in the ‘modest’ section are ‘immodest’.
Surely people wanting clothes with sleeves and below the knee hemline can choose them - without needing them segregated in to a separate section!

Modest is not an offensive term ffs. It really isn't

Modest can mean humble, not boastful self-effacing, self-deprecating, unpretentious, unassuming, unpresuming, unostentatious, low-key. Both men and women can be modest and it can be an admirable quality.

Or it can mean
(of a woman) dressing or behaving so as to avoid impropriety or indecency, especially to avoid attracting sexual attention.

That is a standard dictionary definition.


Its one of these threads now... i have said my piece. Night all

I noticed this section a few days ago thought M&S had really lost the plot Really struggle to find anything decent in their stores these days modest or otherwise
Frankly think it's ridiculous
No modest section in mens clothing

Its one of these threads now... i have said my piece. Night all

One of what threads?

M&s are obviously trying to appeal to Muslim and Jewish who would have a particular concept of modesty (different in each case) but in both we refer to it as modest in English. E.g. Religious Jewish women don't wear trousers but Muslim women would. So modesty depends on your opinion in a religious sense but I would imagine that if I went to the modest section I might find something I could go for dinner with certain family members or for a funeral. So I certainly will be more inclined to have a look now you've brought it to my attention.

Modest in the religious sense doesn't really have an opposite. It either is or isn't modest. Your viewpoint is rather narrow minded. Why on earth would you be offended because a shop is selling clothing suitable for a minority group and has labelled it in a helpful manner.

Astrid. I assume Childrenslivesmatter is taking exception to my saying the post below was nonsense.

But others have now changed it to mean that m and s are trying to shame those who dobt wear this clothing. So actually you have given the word power and a theory, for lack of better word, behind it

Yeah right, it was just a neutral little word like petite or longer length or relaxed fit until we got started.

I should note many of the supermarkets sell kosher food - that means "fit" or "proper". Do you think that means they think all the non kosher food is improper? Are you terribly offended?

So 'modest' may not be the best translation?
The label (with its implications in English) is not helpful to the way women are perceived.

Kosher is fine, it doesn't have associations. This is a feminist thing not an offended thing.

I should note many of the supermarkets sell kosher food - that means "fit" or "proper". Do you think that means they think all the non kosher food is improper? Are you terribly offended?

This question always sounds rude but is English your second language ? There is no comparison between kosher /non kosher and modest/immodest.

I think modest is fine - I know what it means and so do others that it's aimed at. It means slightly different things to different people but even as a rampant feminist and someone who would often wear clothing that's not modest I can't say I'm offended. Anything could have negative connotations e.g. Covered - does that mean others are uncovered, conservative makes me think of Theresa May. Modest is the word we use and I think you would have to try hard to be offended. It just means the clothing complies with certain rules like kosher food.

Modest in the religious sense doesn't really have an opposite

It most certainly does. Religion has always been adept at putting women into opposite boxes.

It has nothing to do with being offended.

It means slightly different things to different people but even as a rampant feminist and someone who would often wear clothing that's not modest

I seriously don't know how any one who calls themselves "a rampant feminist" can write that she "wears clothing that's not modest"

Not ascribing value judgements to women's clothes must be about lesson 1 for baby feminists.

But its not really going to hurt any one is it
That's a moot point.

my nan is atheist. And she likes modest clothing. Is that bad

I don't have a religious faith and I like long sleeves and long dresses. I don't call them 'modest' though, because I'm acutely aware of the implications of the word in this context.

Modest in the religious sense doesn't really have an opposite. It either is or isn't modest.
Doesn't the second sentence here contradict the first?

Let's ask a question.

We're five, ten, fifteen years on from this point. Every women's clothes store now has a "modest" line. Schools are starting to use "modest" to describe their girls uniform rules.

You are standing in front of your wardrobe. Today you will be giving evidence against your harasser.

Do you pick the "modest" outfit, or the whore outfit?

Lass - that's a bit of a silly and rude thing to say. I don't usually dress in a way which my religion would term as modest. I often wear trousers for example. But I can still be a feminist whether I dress like a religious person or not. I recognise I don't wear modest clothing, in the sense of my own religions definition, that doesn't mean I am not a feminist, it's really just a matter of fact.

Certain clothing is appropriate for certain occasions. If you are going to court you would obviously dress smartly and modestly (although perhaps not necessarily in the same sense as I mean, depending on the person). It would be entirely inappropriate to wear a "whore" outfit.

Tolerance is a great thing. Just because people dress differently have any bearing on your life and there's no need to be offended by it or to feel judged by it. There are really much more important issues for women than m&s doing a modest range!

It would be entirely inappropriate to wear a "whore" outfit.

WTF is a "whore outfit"?

I'm so, so weary of listening to women on this thread blithely waffling on about how we should all just relax and not feel threatened by so-called modest fashion.

27 pages of women either wilfully evading the point, or perhaps genuinely missing it entirely. Is it stupidity? Entitlement? A sense of superiority? Arrogance? I have no idea....

Tell you what, I'd be very happy to see so-called modest clothing named as such in mainstream shops when everything else that doesn't fit the modest brief comes under headings such as The Progressive Woman or The Free Woman, The Modern Woman, The Equal Woman or The Intelligent Woman.

Because you know, just because some of us consider ourselves modern, equal, intelligent, progressive and free, and we like to dress in a way that reflects that, doesn't mean we are implying anything about you.....





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To be surprised that M&S has a section on their website for Modest Clothing?672Show OP
Yesterday 20:55 Childrenslivesmatter

You are right. Words are powerful. Im sure m amd s used the word modestly in an innocent manner. But others have now changed it to mean that m and s are trying to shame those who dobt wear this clothing. So actually you have given the word power and a theory, for lack of better word, behind it.

Yesterday 20:59 LassWiTheDelicateAir

What nonsense. Do you seriously think we invented this?

Yesterday 21:02 zsazsajuju

Neither does yours. We should be able to wear what we like without harassment. Intolerant assumptions about women who dress modestly have certainly been made on the thread (brainwashed etc) and women who dress like that are routinely harassed (whether on racial or religious grounds or generally). Modest is not an offensive term ffs. It really isn't.

Yesterday 21:04 FaFoutis

Zsa - what is the opposite of modest?

Yesterday 21:07 Tapandgo

M&S should change the name as it really infers clothing not in the ‘modest’ section are ‘immodest’.
Surely people wanting clothes with sleeves and below the knee hemline can choose them - without needing them segregated in to a separate section!

Yesterday 21:10 LassWiTheDelicateAir

Modest is not an offensive term ffs. It really isn't

Modest can mean humble, not boastful self-effacing, self-deprecating, unpretentious, unassuming, unpresuming, unostentatious, low-key. Both men and women can be modest and it can be an admirable quality.

Or it can mean
(of a woman) dressing or behaving so as to avoid impropriety or indecency, especially to avoid attracting sexual attention.

That is a standard dictionary definition.



Can you still get pregnant if you've got PCOS?
Yesterday 21:11 Childrenslivesmatter

Its one of these threads now... i have said my piece. Night all

Yesterday 21:14 rosie1959

I noticed this section a few days ago thought M&S had really lost the plot Really struggle to find anything decent in their stores these days modest or otherwise
Frankly think it's ridiculous
No modest section in mens clothing

Yesterday 21:16 AstridWhite

Its one of these threads now... i have said my piece. Night all

One of what threads? 

Yesterday 21:22 zsazsajuju

M&s are obviously trying to appeal to Muslim and Jewish who would have a particular concept of modesty (different in each case) but in both we refer to it as modest in English. E.g. Religious Jewish women don't wear trousers but Muslim women would. So modesty depends on your opinion in a religious sense but I would imagine that if I went to the modest section I might find something I could go for dinner with certain family members or for a funeral. So I certainly will be more inclined to have a look now you've brought it to my attention.

Modest in the religious sense doesn't really have an opposite. It either is or isn't modest. Your viewpoint is rather narrow minded. Why on earth would you be offended because a shop is selling clothing suitable for a minority group and has labelled it in a helpful manner.

Yesterday 21:23 LassWiTheDelicateAir

Astrid. I assume Childrenslivesmatter is taking exception to my saying the post below was nonsense.

But others have now changed it to mean that m and s are trying to shame those who dobt wear this clothing. So actually you have given the word power and a theory, for lack of better word, behind it

Yeah right, it was just a neutral little word like petite or longer length or relaxed fit until we got started.

Yesterday 21:26 zsazsajuju

I should note many of the supermarkets sell kosher food - that means "fit" or "proper". Do you think that means they think all the non kosher food is improper? Are you terribly offended?


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Yesterday 21:35 FaFoutis

So 'modest' may not be the best translation?
The label (with its implications in English) is not helpful to the way women are perceived.

Kosher is fine, it doesn't have associations. This is a feminist thing not an offended thing.

Yesterday 21:44 LassWiTheDelicateAir

I should note many of the supermarkets sell kosher food - that means "fit" or "proper". Do you think that means they think all the non kosher food is improper? Are you terribly offended?

This question always sounds rude but is English your second language ? There is no comparison between kosher /non kosher and modest/immodest.

Yesterday 21:45 zsazsajuju

I think modest is fine - I know what it means and so do others that it's aimed at. It means slightly different things to different people but even as a rampant feminist and someone who would often wear clothing that's not modest I can't say I'm offended. Anything could have negative connotations e.g. Covered - does that mean others are uncovered, conservative makes me think of Theresa May. Modest is the word we use and I think you would have to try hard to be offended. It just means the clothing complies with certain rules like kosher food.

Yesterday 21:49 IfyouseeRitaMoreno




Modest in the religious sense doesn't really have an opposite

It most certainly does. Religion has always been adept at putting women into opposite boxes.

Yesterday 21:50 LassWiTheDelicateAir

It has nothing to do with being offended.

It means slightly different things to different people but even as a rampant feminist and someone who would often wear clothing that's not modest

I seriously don't know how any one who calls themselves "a rampant feminist" can write that she "wears clothing that's not modest"

Not ascribing value judgements to women's clothes must be about lesson 1 for baby feminists.

Yesterday 23:09 RhiannonOHara

But its not really going to hurt any one is it
That's a moot point.

my nan is atheist. And she likes modest clothing. Is that bad

I don't have a religious faith and I like long sleeves and long dresses. I don't call them 'modest' though, because I'm acutely aware of the implications of the word in this context.

Modest in the religious sense doesn't really have an opposite. It either is or isn't modest.
Doesn't the second sentence here contradict the first? 

Yesterday 23:19 slightlyglittermaned

Let's ask a question.

We're five, ten, fifteen years on from this point. Every women's clothes store now has a "modest" line. Schools are starting to use "modest" to describe their girls uniform rules.

You are standing in front of your wardrobe. Today you will be giving evidence against your harasser.

Do you pick the "modest" outfit, or the whore outfit?

Today 01:39 zsazsajuju

Lass - that's a bit of a silly and rude thing to say. I don't usually dress in a way which my religion would term as modest. I often wear trousers for example. But I can still be a feminist whether I dress like a religious person or not. I recognise I don't wear modest clothing, in the sense of my own religions definition, that doesn't mean I am not a feminist, it's really just a matter of fact

You are still ignoring the loaded value judgement applied in describing women's clothing as "modest".

Sorry posting fail. Didn't mean to quote all of it- just the last bit in bold.

Tolerance is a great thing. Just because people dress differently have any bearing on your life and there's no need to be offended by it or to feel judged by it. There are really much more important issues for women than m&s doing a modest range!

You are completely missing the point. I have not made any criticism in any way , shape or form of what people are wearing. I don't think any one else has.

What is so difficult to understand that applying such a loaded judgemental term to a style of clothing is wrong? How have you managed to turn that in to thinking I am criticising women who wear fuller covering clothes?

As for "tolerance" frankly it is a bit bizarre to be lectured on tolerance by someone who apparently thinks "modest" is an acceptable way to describe clothes.

Here is the dictionary definition.(of a woman) dressing or behaving so as to avoid impropriety or indecency, especially to avoid attracting sexual attention

Here is an example of a woman who, according to M&S, is dressing or behaving in a way that might invite impropriety and indecency and is not making enough effort to avoid sexual attention.

And [[http://www.marksandspencer.com/cotton-blend-checked-midi-dress/p/p60108118?

image=SD01T599077DY4XEC_90&color=BLACKMIX&prevPage=plp here]] is another one.

If that's not a terrifying indictment of where we are heading I don't know what is.