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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To be surprised that M&S has a section on their website for Modest Clothing?

934 replies

Scabbersley · 29/11/2017 09:07

here

What's that all about then? Why does it warrant its own category?

OP posts:
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9
Rebeccaslicker · 01/12/2017 09:31

Lass - indeed, I am now pondering a situation in the future where I take my DD in there and she asks what it means.

ArcheryAnnie · 01/12/2017 09:33

Perhaps that's something more important for Mumsnetters to consider? The trouble is it's huge and it's everywhere. So it's easier to fret and fume about a few polo-necks and skirts in just one shop.

AnnaMagdalene some of us are, amazingly, capable of thinking and acting on more than one thing at a time. Being concerned about the shaming of women for wearing - or not wearing - a particular style of clothing does not stop me from being concerned about a whole load of other things.

And have you actually read any of this thread? I don't think anybody here cares that M&S are selling a few polo-necks and skirts. Some of us who are concerned may actually like the polo-necks and skirts*, may even buy them. Except we won't if that clothing, or any other, is described by M&S in a value-laden way that leads to some women - including women of faith - being bullied for what they wear.

  • disclaimer: I don't like the skirts, tbf.
AnnaMagdalene · 01/12/2017 09:49

It's very much about the usefulness of labelling. Retailers and other institutions which depend on customer footfall will find it helpful to segment their stock. For some people who use the services these labels will be helpful. They can find exactly what they want easily. This is good for the retailer or institution as they grown in popularity.

The downside is that segmenting/labelling can also depress sales. Some Mumsnet users say they find the 'modest' label so offensive that they won't shop at Marks and Spencers. Or even if some people find the label positive it might depress customer involvement. Those who like the 'modest' clothes may end up only looking for that particular badge and end up not buying other (unbadged) tops or trousers or skirts that would meet their needs. If a library has a section marked 'Books for Boys' male readers might feel they really couldn't borrow anything from the more sparkly-looking 'Mates and Dates' even if there was a a really well-written book there about the problems within a male-female friendships. (The boys might borrow fewer books rather than more titles.)

LassWiTheDelicateAir · 01/12/2017 10:00

Anna why don't you start a thread naming and shaming this specific library then instead of derailing this one?

It is a while since I have been in a public library. I spend a lot of time in bookshops and have never seen a single one with a "books for boys" section

ArcheryAnnie · 01/12/2017 10:01

AnnaMagdalene and in this case what M&S may perceive as a useful marketing tool will contribute to some women getting bullied and shamed for what they wear, which is unacceptable however "useful" the marketing tool in question is. (And as you say, there are marketing downsides to the tool as well as upsides.)

AstridWhite · 01/12/2017 10:24

it's easier to fret and fume about a few polo-necks and skirts in just one shop

Again, spectacularly missing the point. Sorry to have to shout, but IT IS NOT ABOUT THE BLOODY CLOTHES. Turtle necks and full length skirts were not invented last week to appeal purely to women who are, or choose to be restricted by their religion or their culture.

I've just looked at the M&S website and every category of clothing is factually described with the one exception of Modest Outfits. Nothing else is described by value judgement or by perception in the eye of the beholder. So let's turn this on its head and imagine all the clothes with the exception of 'modest' clothes are described by the message they send out, or how the woman who buys them wants to look and feel.

To those who seek out 'modest' fashion, how would you feel about this?

You go into M&S or onto their website and the clothes are divided into two types - those that might fulfil your brief of 'modest' and then everything else.

Now imagine the 'modest' stuff has no further description attached to it but everything is grouped together under various banners using defining words such as :

Alluring

Feminine and Beautiful

Stylish and Elegant

Cutting Edge, Fashion Forward

Dynamic and Professional for Strong Successful Women

Progressive and Modern

Youthful and Fun

And the clothes available to you, taking into consideration your religious and cultural restrictions, are not categorised as any of those things by M&S.

How would that make you feel?

AnnaMagdalene · 01/12/2017 10:24

This just came up on my Facebook feed. It's a brilliant article.

www.nytimes.com/2017/11/02/t-magazine/modest-fashion-clothes.html?mc=adintl&mcid=Facebook&ad-keywords=IntlAudDev&subid1=TAFI

Rebeccaslicker · 01/12/2017 10:30

Astrid - massive round of applause, that's a great illustration

AstridWhite · 01/12/2017 10:33

Or in fact, better still, let's include the category of Modest in with all the other imaginary categories I've listed above. So you can be modest, but therefore by default you cannot be stylish, dynamic, beautiful, youthful, modern etc, etc.......

KC225 · 01/12/2017 11:30

Well said Astrid. Although for 24 pages people have been yelling it's not about the clothes or the people it's aimed its the description and yet still..

.

Original poster
Scabbersley · 01/12/2017 11:32

Not sure what the library has to do with anything but it sounds crap. Not sure I totally believe it either.

OP posts:
Original poster
Scabbersley · 01/12/2017 11:32

Astrid that's a fab explanation but I fear the hard of thinking still won't get it.

OP posts:
AstridWhite · 01/12/2017 11:41

Well no-one 'modest' is beating a path to my door with a response so far. Confused

AstridWhite · 01/12/2017 11:47

Because the blindingly obvious response would be to say:

'By telling me what you are, or aspire to be, you are telling me what I am not or cannot ever be, unless and until I agree to dress in a way that fits within your very rigid parameters.'

YoloSwaggins · 01/12/2017 11:58

Maybe only intelligent women understand why this is a worrying trend confused

What a nasty bitchy thing to say.

I have a first in maths but must be a thicko because I don't think this is bad.

You're upset M&S is validating a word that many women see their clothing as? So you don't like this word and think women shouldn't call "covered" clothing "modest"? So you're telling millions of women their definition of this word is disrespectful to you because it implies you're "immodest"?

Seriously, I just couldn't summon up enough energy to care about what someone's clothes range title may or may not imply about me.

I didn't find any of those "imaginary" categories offensive either.

YoloSwaggins · 01/12/2017 12:00

"Hard of thinking"?

As soon as you insult people who don't agree with you, you've lost.

Rebeccaslicker · 01/12/2017 12:10

Lost what? It's not a war Hmm

Why don't you think it's a bad thing for women to have a section for modest clothing when men don't?

AstridWhite · 01/12/2017 12:13

You're upset M&S is validating a word that many women see their clothing as? So you don't like this word and think women shouldn't call "covered" clothing "modest"? So you're telling millions of women their definition of this word is disrespectful to you because it implies you're "immodest"?

That's it in a nutshell. Well done. No wonder you got a first in maths, your powers of deduction are second to none.

Seriously, I just couldn't summon up enough energy to care about what someone's clothes range title may or may not imply about me.

You don't care now because it's just M&S pandering to a minority group of women. Come back and tell me you don't care in 30 years time when women are routinely getting hissed at and spat at on British streets for showing their hair or their elbows or their cleavage.

You think it won't ever happen? It will if we allow this slow and insidious creep of mainstream shops attaching moral worth or virtue to items of clothing and categorising women based on their outfit choices.

LadyinCement · 01/12/2017 12:14

What word should be used?

M&S is a business - they want to attract a growing customer base of women who for religious reasons wish to dress in "covering" clothes. They obviously can't label the stuff "Religious Clothing" (that would imply nuns' habits etc!) or "Islam-friendly" or "Orthodox Jewish friendly". But they want the clothes under one banner, so someone doesn't have to trawl through all the skirts/blouses/dresses in order to find something suitable.

Frankly I would look in the "Modest" section and not feel defined or even shamed any more than I would feel immodest looking at the other clothes. They are just clothes with perhaps a bit more cloth! Fgs they are not selling full burkhas annotated with their special no-flapping merits.

Bombardier25966 · 01/12/2017 12:15

I am now pondering a situation in the future where I take my DD in there and she asks what it means.

"Some women choose to wear clothes that cover most of their skin, this section is designed for them. It's entirely fine to display as little or as much skin as you want to, and we respect the rights of others to make their own choices too."

Not difficult!

LadyinCement · 01/12/2017 12:18

But it's not a special section. It's on the website where all the "modest" - or clothes with more covering - are gathered together to make choosing something easy. There's not a "Specially for Nice Modest Women - Get Out You Sluts" section on shop floors.

Rebeccaslicker · 01/12/2017 12:19

I disagree bombardier. I think the concept of judging women for how they dress, which many people do, is a very difficult one. And I think things like this make it worse.

Here is the Oxford dictionary definition of "modest". Which one of these would you want to apply to your clothing when you look at "modest" as a label?

en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/modest

Rebeccaslicker · 01/12/2017 12:19

Lady - not yet there isn't..!

YoloSwaggins · 01/12/2017 12:27

Come back and tell me you don't care in 30 years time when women are routinely getting hissed at and spat at on British streets for showing their hair or their elbows or their cleavage.

This is just bollocks DM islamophobic scaremongering.

Immodest means "not fully covered" in religious terms and means nothing to me as i'm not religious. It doesn't instantly imply "slag".

I'm also unpure, an infidel and going to hell by certain definitions, but those concepts mean nothing to me so I still can't bring myself to care.

So...@astrid, you think millions of women worldwide shouldn't use this word anymore because you think it implies something bad about you? I don't really think we should be dictating to millions of women what they should and shouldn't label their clothes as.