To think that trans athletes have no place in women's sports?

[cdvegan2023]

I don't think most people realise how huge athletic differences between men and women are, maybe because human sexual dimorphism doesn't appear that significant on first glance?

Not too long ago John McEnroe caused quite a stir by stating that Serena would only be around the 700 spot in men's rankings. He was called sexist, a caveman, pig etc. If anything, he was being generous and PC (as much as Mac can be, anyway). Andy Murray also stated years ago that "I would be surprised if they were inside 1000" . People don't seem to understand that the 1000 guy is still a very good player and that men's tennis is not only far more physical but also more technically complex.

www.express.co.uk/sport/tennis/822372/Andy-Murray-John-McEnroe-2010-best-women-top-1000-men-Serena-Williams

In football the best women's teams lose to local 13-14 yo boys all the time. The world cup winning USA team was demolished by a Dallas boys team , 2-5. The national aussie team lost 0-7 to a random boys team of similar ages. There are countless examples like that. And these boys are no world beaters either, many of them won't even sign a pro contract in their life, never mind start for Real Madrid. If no name barely teenage boys can outplay a top adult women's team without breaking a sweat , imagine how the women would fare against grown ass men. Checking wiki I could not find a single sport where senior women had better records than junior boys. Women's olympic results are often lower than men's who do it as a hobby at their local club. And don't even get me started on violent sports.... Aibu that this is insanity?

www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/

www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/australian-womens-national-team-lose-70-to-team-of-15yearold-boys-a3257266.html

Oh ffs. The brain is not a muscle!

And yes there are clear differences in men's and women's brains both physical (sometimes smaller in size) and in the way they work. The differences range from ability in certain tasks eg reaction times, hand eye coordination, fine motor skills but also with core skills; women tend have a better propensity for memory, problem solving and multitasking. Men tend to propensity for focusing on a single goal and achievement. Note I say 'tend to' as there are clear and many many many outliers.

All of these are products of evolution; the man after the buffalo, the woman problem solver, maker of things and multitasker at home all coming from our 'inner animal brain'. All of these skills bring different positive benefits to jobs; men and women just go about thing differently hence why the concept of equality reigns as all of these skills are required in a workplace and in Leaders.

In terms of intelligence we all have the same outer cortex that gives us our higher intelligence. In that sense men and women are absolutely intellectual equals with key supporting skills and emotional intelligence to back them up.

Physically though there are clear and inequitable differences so men don't belong in women's sport.

Despite the study’s consistent sex-linked patterns, the researchers also found considerable overlap between men and women in brain volume and cortical thickness, just as you might find in height. In other words, just by looking at the brain scan, or height, of someone plucked at random from the study, researchers would be hard pressed to say whether it came from a man or woman. That suggests both sexes’ brains are far more similar than they are different.

From one of your articles apparently meant to be stating the definitive proof that mens and womens brains are actually different and neuroscientist Cordelia Fine is a 'hack' Mawall

Eventually - if it gets that far, which is looking increasingly likely - then one very powerful thing will stop it all: money. Sporting bodies are in it for the money. Imagine the madness continues unchecked and in a few years' time all the female sports events are overwhelmingly dominated by men. Who will watch them? Women? Unlikely (would any of you?) Men? Unlikely - most men feel uncomfortable watching men in drag, and one of the appeals of women's sports for men is admiring attractive sportswomen. Obviously some men do have a thing for men in drag, but I don't think the number is very high. Result? Audience numbers will go down dramatically. That's when the sports industry will have a miraculous change of heart.

Of course until then sportswomen are being totally ripped off. Which prompts the question - how do we stop this BS, ASAP? This forum is doing a great job in raising awareness, but many people don't come on here.

Which prompts the question - how do we stop this BS, ASAP?

Women should refuse to compete with XY chromosoned transsexuals.
If the governing bodies persist in their inclusion in women's events, all women should drop out and organise their own awards and competitions.
Do not facilitate this madness by being part of it or taking part in celebratory "oh look it's so accepted" false PR photocalls.

But look at what happened to Lyndsey Sharp. She was (unfairly IMO) asked how she felt about Caster Semenya dominating the 800m and she was upset and clearly frustrated. She was CRUCIFIED on twitter and even now she carries that stigma.

People are generally scornful about women's sport - my dd plays football and the amount of patronising BS she has to put up with is incredible. Man U won't have a women's team as they feel it would damage their brand.

So my point is that this is happening and I think people just think its funny that women get so cross about it.

WRT to brain difference - I'm pretty sure you cannot determine sex by dissecting a new borns brain. As our brains are plastic /elastic they change over times - AFAIK any brain differences there may be are not innate, but products of our gendered upbringing.

Happy to be corrected though.

Oh, you can pick out differences in adult brains, definitely. But your experiences change your brain, so...

Imagine the madness continues unchecked and in a few years' time all the female sports events are overwhelmingly dominated by men. Who will watch them? Women? Unlikely (would any of you?) Men? Unlikely - most men feel uncomfortable watching men in drag

^ I think this is true.

The only thing that will put a stop to all this, is straight men and their associated male privilege, up in arms against it.

Unfortunately, whatever women have to say won't make as huge an huge impact. Were that the case, you wouldn't have transwomen born and socialised as men, with the greater physical strength that comes with, allowed to enter a boxing ring and beat a woman as if she were fighting a man

Albeit a couple of years ago after the boxing fight (sorry I can't recall names right now) I remember being on MN and either ignored or shouted down when I mentioned how dangerous and unfair this was. Fast forward to now it's at least refreshing to see a discussion that is rooted in the reality of what's actually happening out there. Not some fantasy world where it's all ok. It isnt

Most female sports will not be dominated by transwomen in a few years. But there will be certain sports who will have transwomen champions and world record holders.

Women will just have to keep buggering on in third, fourth etc

That is how most people expect women to live their lives anyway

An aspect of this that gives me some thought is how exercised cis men are about invasions of their sporting/employment/space.

Fuck all would be my guess, but I am willing to be educated .

echt
An aspect of this that gives me some thought is how exercised cis men are about invasions of their sporting/employment/space.

Football ends? - all out war
Urban districts? - turf wars
Gentlemen's clubs? - restrictions on membership

If a transsexual was to threaten their personal safety or their possibility of winning, there would be an outcry.

Please don't use the word cis.

This thread is so full of mysogyny I am even shocked, and I've been on MN for years.

then she lost to a woman- thats how bad she was - cause women really are bad at stuff - so even if it was a fair fight it would have sucked.

Nobody transitions for a fucking medal. Have you no clue?

Another thing i've also found fascinated is how men ''think'' sports. Oh so men ARE smarter than us, and better at the thinking. Maybe womens sports have difficulty competing cause they are socialised from birth to not play them? And then there is no fucking money anyway?

My gender commits massively more violent crime than women and it can't all be due to socialisation. oh, it's NATURAL that you're all raping and beating women. I guess the ones that don't must be abnormal.

TIMs are told they’re brave and fabulous and pass, because women feel sorry for them in many cases I feel sorry for them when I read the vile shit on these threads, that's for sure. They have horrifically difficult lives, full of prejudice, risk and often literal violence and ruthless discrimination. You ought to be making space for them. Instead you find any excuse to slag them them in any way you can. You all ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

DONUT DONUT DONUT DONUT DONUT

Politicians change policies to gain votes. (That's the purpose of focus groups I believe.) So if most women become furious about this issue, even if most men remain indifferent/unaware then whichever party supports women will gain a hell of a lot of votes. Sure most men aren't too aware of or concerned about trans issues, but they certainly aren't in favour of what's happening.

And most men are very protective of their daughters etc: if the general public realises that all political parties are enabling teenage boys to access girls' changing rooms etc etc then men will be more supportive/motivated.

The best weapon we have is simply letting people know exactly what's happening. Once the cat is out of the bag I suspect the whole thing will become politically toxic and each party will be rushing to disown their present actions.

(I'm not discussing the sports aspect in particular here but the situation as a whole.)

You ought to be making space for them.

Why?

Why is it women who must move up and make space?
Why must it be womens job to make men happy and comfortable?

An aspect of this that gives me some thought is how exercised cis men are about invasions of their sporting/employment/space

its all protected for them. Gentlemans clubs have said they will not admit transmen who are born women

Primogeniture is not affected by transmen

I cannot think of a sport where a woman would be better than a man and therefore threaten their chances = no fuss

I CAN tell you that when my female dd got a place on the primary school football team, parents complained that she had taken a boys place. So yes, if transmen start to impinge on mens sports teams there will be a fuss.

Why can't men move up to make space for them? Why do we have to do it? PIss off.

liminality you can’t really think women should make space for men in women’s sports can you? And what was all that about donuts?

then whichever party supports women will gain a hell of a lot of votes

which party would that be. I can't think of one off hand!

That was my point - if for example 80% of women felt very strongly about this issue, then whichever party realised and did a sincere U turn would gain a hell of a lot of votes.

My use of the term 'sincere' is ironic of course.

liminality you said They have horrifically difficult lives, full of prejudice, risk and often literal violence and ruthless discrimination.

Funny, really as you that statement could equally apply to the lives of many biological women, yet where is the media support and trendy hashtagging of those women's experience?

You may think that you are being liberal and pursuing equality - but clearly there is no equality (or fairness) if you allow men who are genetically and hormonally bigger and stronger compete against women.

i think EVERYONE should make space for minorities who are discriminated against. I think you bloody fortunate people should make space in your minds to do a bit of reading and lower your prejudice. I think men should make space for women and women space for men.
I think not one of you has a friend who has transitioned and has no idea the painful reality of that life choice. IF THEY HAVE TRANSITIONED THEY ARE NOW WOMEN. and vice versa. They are not women masquerading as men. If you knew any, other than 4 high [profile extreme cases elevated by tawdry media, you would know that. And yes, let them in. Let them come in.

With regards, to sports - you have a mildly complicated issue. That could be easily resolved if people weren't so hotheaded and using outdated socialisations. But most of this chat isn't actually about what is fair, it is discrimination and prejudice, and I repeat, you ought to be ashamed.

SlowlyShrinking If you don't know what a donut is you must be new here.

You ought to be making space for them

Why? Why is it women who have to make space, especially when it could prove an absolute risk to themselves