To think that trans athletes have no place in women's sports?

[cdvegan2023]

I don't think most people realise how huge athletic differences between men and women are, maybe because human sexual dimorphism doesn't appear that significant on first glance?

Not too long ago John McEnroe caused quite a stir by stating that Serena would only be around the 700 spot in men's rankings. He was called sexist, a caveman, pig etc. If anything, he was being generous and PC (as much as Mac can be, anyway). Andy Murray also stated years ago that "I would be surprised if they were inside 1000" . People don't seem to understand that the 1000 guy is still a very good player and that men's tennis is not only far more physical but also more technically complex.

www.express.co.uk/sport/tennis/822372/Andy-Murray-John-McEnroe-2010-best-women-top-1000-men-Serena-Williams

In football the best women's teams lose to local 13-14 yo boys all the time. The world cup winning USA team was demolished by a Dallas boys team , 2-5. The national aussie team lost 0-7 to a random boys team of similar ages. There are countless examples like that. And these boys are no world beaters either, many of them won't even sign a pro contract in their life, never mind start for Real Madrid. If no name barely teenage boys can outplay a top adult women's team without breaking a sweat , imagine how the women would fare against grown ass men. Checking wiki I could not find a single sport where senior women had better records than junior boys. Women's olympic results are often lower than men's who do it as a hobby at their local club. And don't even get me started on violent sports.... Aibu that this is insanity?

www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/

www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/australian-womens-national-team-lose-70-to-team-of-15yearold-boys-a3257266.html

[SylviaTietjens]

Yanbu at all. The whole thing makes me want to chew my own arm off.

[JacquesHammer]

My 10 year old dd competes against a biological male who identifies as female. It is allowed under the national governing body rules.

It wouldn't be that unusual though for pre-pubescent boys/girls to compete against each other.

[nancy75]

The thought of a trans person playing in a female Aussie rules team is frightening stuff, Aussie rules is a full on, full contact sport - men playing against men get battered, add a man playing against women to that & you are just waiting to see a very serious injury on the pitch

[HicDraconis]

YANBU. Humans that were born biologically male will have a huge advantage over humans that were born biologically female from the very early years socialisation through to the hormonal changes of puberty. There is no way that a biologically male human could compete fairly against a biologically female human in most sporting events - their muscle mass, tendons, bones, joints, ligaments and height will give them an advantage even if they lower their testosterone levels.

I would also be interested in what exactly "living as a woman" involves. On the grounds that I am one and yet I work full time out of the home in a traditionally male dominated profession (my husband - definitely male - is the stay at home parent responsible for the majority of the childcare and housework), I don't own a skirt or a pair of heeled shoes, I have worn makeup twice in my life - why does one have to be gendered male or female to have this lifestyle?

I am female. I have been through female puberty, I bleed every month, I have had children. I have had to fight to prove myself better than (not equal to) my male colleagues in order to get my university place, then my various training jobs and finally my current job. I have had to cope with sexual harrassment from males which started at the age of around 10 and continued up until very recently. I have had to put up with sexual innuendo at work, being treated like a second class member of the department because of my gender (probably completely unconsciously on the part of the middle aged white male person who is mostly responsible), I have had to brush off the body shaming, the comments about weight and clothing, the behaviour and comments from other staff members who would never treat one of my male colleagues in the same way.

This, to me, is living as a woman. I don't see any male-to-transfemale having to cope with that. They have their own issues and their own problems and it's not a competition as to who has it hardest. I'm not saying I have it harder or easier, just that I, as a woman, have it different. Their problems are not my problems, my hassles are not their hassles - and my gender is most definitely not theirs.

[Micah]

It wouldn't be that unusual though for pre-pubescent boys/girls to compete against each other

Isn’t it? I have never come across it at club level. Maybe once or twice at recreational level if the numbers are very low.

This is a sport where the rules are slightly different for boys/girls so they do not compete together.

It’s national level too, not local or regional.

[nancy75]

Tennis is played mixed up to under 12, then its split boys & girls. There are separate comps for under 8 upwards but it’s not unusual for it to be mixed at that age

[runwalkrun]

I would absolutely love to know what Kaitlyn Jenner has to say on this matter.
We would get some insights from the point of view of a a sportsman and a former olympian.

Sadly, the people who could and should speak out, because they are in the perfect position to comment - either to condone or support controversial matters, never do.
and so we keep going around in circles.

[runwalkrun]

Perhaps a transwoman who has fully transitioned and whose treatment means the hormone levels and muscle mass and so on in her body are those in the accepted 'female' range can fairly compete against cis women- I don't know for sure, but it may be possible.

and it still wouldn't be fair, because someone who is born male has a different shaped pelvis (which is better suited to sport)
Bigger lungs (better suited to sport).
The whole physical structure of a male is better suited to doing well at sport.
Even if a transwoman has lost most of her 'male' muscle mass, she still has the advantages of having been born with a MALE skeleton.

[salequeen]

Agree. I ride. There's a reason it's equal footing. It's not about strength on a horse it's training ( your live equipment with its own brain ) it makes no impact if your big / small. I'm 5'2 weight 7st and competed against large male riders. I can see why there are gender separation in certain sports. I fully support equality and the freedom to be who you want to be but it has to have an impact somewhere and competitive sport, athletics etc need to be boundaries for fairness.

[PolarBearGoingSomewhere]

salequeen

Segregation by sex, not gender, is essential in sport.

[salequeen]

That's what I meant I realised as soon as I wrote it..

[Mawalls]

No1blueengine
there is no evidence of any physical difference between an male brain and a female brain.

This is wrong. You can identify with 80% accuracy the sex of a patient via MRI scan and cordelia fine is a hack

stanmed.stanford.edu/2017spring/how-mens-and-womens-brains-are-different.html

www.thecut.com/2017/04/heres-the-biggest-study-yet-on-sex-based-brain-differences.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_sex_differences#Male_vs._female_brain_anatomy

www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders

www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/04/study-finds-some-significant-differences-brains-men-and-women

[PolarBearGoingSomewhere]

It's so easily done isn't it. I think if we just got rid of the concept of gender, people are people who can wear what they want etc, and just did stuff based on biological sex, issues like this would've been avoided. The power of language!

[salequeen]

So true! I'm sat here in joggers, an oversized jumper, and high top converse with short hair scraped back and no make up ! Tomorrow I will probably wear thick tights a body con skirt, ballet pumps and hair still scraped back and no make up but look more like a ( dare I say it ) girl!
I am who I am. Female by biology but I do stand in the School yard ( in my converse ) and feel like I should be dressed up like other mums in heels then in a second thought think why should I !
I don't want to ! I'd rather be jumping in muddy puddles on route home with ds's than avoiding them but that's who I am 😂

[CertainHalfDesertedStreets]

Neuroscience of sex differencesis the study of the characteristics of the brain that separate the male brain and the female brain. Psychological sex differences are thought by some to reflect the interaction of genes, hormones and social learning on brain development throughout the lifespan.

Some evidence from brain morphology and function studies indicates that male and female brains cannot always be assumed to be identical from either a structural or functional perspective, and some brain structures aresexually dimorphic.[1][2]

Experts note that neural sexual dimorphisms in humans exist only as averages, with overlappingvariabilities,[3]and that it is unknown to what extent each isinfluencedbygenetics or environment, even in adulthood.[4][5]

It's not really a slam dunk for blue and pink brains that wikipedia page is it?

[DrRisotto]

Cordelia Fine and Prof Angela Rippon are certainly not hacks. They are Neuroscientists and I highly doubt that you are in any kind of position of authority to write them off.

[BarrackerBarmer]

Arf at 'that neuroscientist is a hack but here is what wiki says...'

Fine and Rippon collaborated on a paper of recommendations for their peers about constructing robust research that avoids bias within brain studies.

Have you read critiques of any of the studies? Some of them were laughably structured; some of the conclusions were literally the reverse of what the data showed. Even scientists can produce a shit show of a study and if it''s written up by science journalists in the popular media people will happily take away a message that isn't supported by the evidence at all.

The book basically reviews all the major studies you'll have heard of. I dare anyone to take a look and feel confident that they have evidence for Nature, not Nurture, based on the findings.

[CertainHalfDesertedStreets]

In the last interview I heard with a neuroscientist about this she said that what was really interesting is why so many people are studying this given how little evidence there is that there's anything to study.

[WhatALoadOfOldBollocks]

YADNBU. PPs have explained why far more eloquently than I can. A trans women will never be a woman. He (and I hate that I'm supposed to call them female!) will be advantaged due to larger muscle mass, different bone structure, etc, so should not be competing with women. And no, I'm not going to call biological women "cis women" either. Quite frankly it gives me the fucking rage to be labeled "cis" when I'm quite simply a WOMAN.

I think a trans woman who chooses not to have hormone treatment or surgery or any other physical intervention is a woman if she identifies and lives as such
I really don't agree. A woman is a biological term. A trans "woman" is a bloke who wants to live as a woman, whatever the hell that means. Totally different creature entirely. I could shave all my hair off, wear men's clothes, work on a building site, insist that people call me Dave and "he", go on lads nights out, get really into football, but I'd still be a woman.

[Changebagsandgladrags]

Apols for mentioning roller derby again. The UK roller derby association says in its policy "female relates to those who identify full time as a woman". So no hormones, nothing needed. A great hulking giant of a man could therefore identify as female and crash into women at speed on roller skates.

Because, according to UKRDA...it's not about anatomy.

[Scabbersley]

Bloody hell you are scornful about women's football and equestrianism OP! I find that as depressing as anything else on this thread tbh.

[pamish]

And it's not just about bringing home medals. Especially in the US, winning at sports brings an education. Some athletes here also make a career from their sports prowess. If we continue to allow this invasion of women's sports, there won't be any women's sports left, in a very few years. If the GRA goes through as planned, men can call themselves women with no drugs or surgery, and to refuse them access will be illegal. The end.
.

[verystressedmum]

Totally agree. It’s ridiculous that it should be allowed to happen the biological differences are too wide to be in any way fair.
A trans woman is just that, a trans woman who is biologically male.

[MissUnderwood]

YANBU. When are we going to sign up against this obvious bullshit?

Sign me up.

I'm tall like a man, I've born two babies and don't wear make up or dresses.

Feck the feck off. Males do not get to prove what being female is. Feckin prove your periods and so on, then I'll feckin listen. Until then, feck off.