To think that trans athletes have no place in women's sports?

[cdvegan2023]

I don't think most people realise how huge athletic differences between men and women are, maybe because human sexual dimorphism doesn't appear that significant on first glance?

Not too long ago John McEnroe caused quite a stir by stating that Serena would only be around the 700 spot in men's rankings. He was called sexist, a caveman, pig etc. If anything, he was being generous and PC (as much as Mac can be, anyway). Andy Murray also stated years ago that "I would be surprised if they were inside 1000" . People don't seem to understand that the 1000 guy is still a very good player and that men's tennis is not only far more physical but also more technically complex.

www.express.co.uk/sport/tennis/822372/Andy-Murray-John-McEnroe-2010-best-women-top-1000-men-Serena-Williams

In football the best women's teams lose to local 13-14 yo boys all the time. The world cup winning USA team was demolished by a Dallas boys team , 2-5. The national aussie team lost 0-7 to a random boys team of similar ages. There are countless examples like that. And these boys are no world beaters either, many of them won't even sign a pro contract in their life, never mind start for Real Madrid. If no name barely teenage boys can outplay a top adult women's team without breaking a sweat , imagine how the women would fare against grown ass men. Checking wiki I could not find a single sport where senior women had better records than junior boys. Women's olympic results are often lower than men's who do it as a hobby at their local club. And don't even get me started on violent sports.... Aibu that this is insanity?

www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/

www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/australian-womens-national-team-lose-70-to-team-of-15yearold-boys-a3257266.html

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3095365-Transgender-weightlifter-named-to-NZ-weightlifting-squad

Humans are dioecious. Men and women are two distinct classes and should not be made to compete together.

Maybe if transwomen start winning some olympic medals (sport is, after all, something men and politicians care about) the "transwomen are women" line will be shown up for what it is.

Yy boopsy, I think the politeness and pretending doesn’t do anyone any favours. TIMs are told they’re brave and fabulous and pass, because women feel sorry for them in many cases, and they believe it and when anyone objects to them trying to insert themselves into women’s sports or whatever, they’re outraged (disclaimer, I do know that not all transwomen are like that)

For the skeptics who are a little too invested in the idea that male/female brains must be as innately dimorphic as bodily anatomy, might I suggest you take a dispassionate look at the evidence? I second the previous poster who recommended Cordelia Fine - I suggest 'Delusions of gender' as a comprehensive summary of the major neuroscientific studies examining brain sex differences and whether they are down to nature/nurture/researcher bias.

Truth is, innate cognitive differences between the sexes are minimal. The differences we observe in adulthood are, horrifyingly, a result of the unbalanced way society treats the sexes.

A pp asked why males shouldn't compete with females in mental skills like chess etc, if they believed themselves to have a female brain...setting aside the fallacy that any human has a female type brain for a moment, I read a paper a couple of years ago that set out to investigate why there were so few female grand masters in chess, and to assess whether the theory that males were innately superior was true.
The statistical analysis showed that barriers to girls being encouraged into chess were so severe, in every country and at every age, that the collective pool of talent was hugely diminished in comparison to boys. And, had girls been afforded entry into chess in similar numbers as boys from early childhood, there would be equal female grand masters.

In other words, those future female grand masters were and are out there. They'll never know it and nor will we. They''ll never even find out that this is a natural aptitude, because their birth sex has placed them on a different path.

That's why we have female competitions for disciplines that seem like they need not be sex segregated. Not because of differences in aptitude. Because of differences in opportunity.

Male and female hearts are different, including in size (warning - even though that link is a medical-lite paper, it uses sex and gender interchangeably )

That's why we have female competitions for disciplines that seem like they need not be sex segregated. Not because of differences in aptitude. Because of differences in opportunity

And if we allow more and more transwomen and transgirls into female sport at younger and younger ages, these already scant opportunities will dry up altogether

I’m want to know how the IOC decided on the testosterone limit for M2F competitors?

I believe (but maybe wrong) it’s 10 nmol. ‘Vanilla’ women have about 2 nmol. Anything approaching 4 nmol and we’d have physical ie facial/body hair and fertility problems.

Are the IOC therefore saying a 5 fold increase in testosterone does not make a material advantage?

This is before you assess the very real impact of male puberty on the body - muscle mass, bone density, pelvis & hip alignment, fist size etc... and then lengthy period of training as a man.

Intersex is a completely different issue.

Agree with a pp (Bob?) will be interested to hear about any F2M athletes...

Yanbu, the physical advantage is obvious, it's why we have sex segregated sports, women's sports will become pointless if they have to compete against men.
They should set up a trans sports competitions if they are unhappy to compete in the men's.

Anyone born male should not compete with Women, except at the 'social' level of sport.

I have my doubts about intersex as well - I fear a day where talent scouts look for a Y chromosome in girls as an indicator of potential.

For full disclosure I am very pro trans rights and often find the discussion of the subject on mumsnet horribly offensive.

That said, sport is divided by biological sex, not gender identity. Cis (whatever your feelings on this term) men are generally stronger and faster than cis women, with greater reach. The sport I love most is tennis and the tennis player in the women's game I admire most is Serena. She is a strong, fast, incredibly skilled woman who I believe could beat every other woman tennis player in history on her day. She is amazing, she takes my breath away. But could she compete with the top men? Nor a chance. It's been discussed over and over how far down the men's rankings you'd need to go before you came to players Serena would have a good chance of beating and whilst there is no definitive answer, the consensus is its pretty far. Clearly, to be biologically male puts one at a great advantage when it comes to most sports.

I don't think it is fair for someone who is biologically male to compete as a woman in an arena where the division for competition is made on biological sex. Perhaps a transwoman who has fully transitioned and whose treatment means the hormone levels and muscle mass and so on in her body are those in the accepted 'female' range can fairly compete against cis women- I don't know for sure, but it may be possible.

I think a trans woman who chooses not to have hormone treatment or surgery or any other physical intervention is a woman if she identifies and lives as such. I don't think she is someone who can fairly expect to compete in women's sport, though. I know there are many trans women who will find this hurtful and exclusionary and unfair. But as long as we divide our sporting categories by biological sex and can recognise that cis men have a massive advantage over cis women when it comes to sport, I think it is fair to exclude trans women who do not wish to physically transition, and that to do otherwise would not be a proportionate response to the hurt they may experience.

@sinceyouask: "I think a trans woman who chooses not to have hormone treatment or surgery or any other physical intervention is a woman if she identifies and lives as such."

Why? What does 'living as a woman' mean? I'm still none the wiser as to what that actually entails.

Not up to me to enlighten you if you choose not to understand, @Jigglytuff.

I’m not sure why a trans woman would want to compete against a biological woman though? Obviously they must know that they have a huge physical advantage and that it’s an unfair competition?

sinceyouask why do biological differences matter in sport but not, for example, in prisons?

I support anyone's right to live their life in the way that makes them happy - be that wearing a dress or having a beard or whatever. No one should be discriminated against for choosing to live their life as whatever gender (which is, after all, a social construct). However, as you acknowledge, there are biological differences which cannot be changed and must not be overlooked. For me, that includes sexual characteristics such as the ability to get - or be gotten - pregnant, as well as phenotype differences that are relevant to sport.

If biological differences are relevant enough to sex segregate sports by, be that for safety reasons or competitive advantage or whatever, they are relevant enough to sex segregate other areas such as refuges (where "competitive advantage" of a male-bodied person could prove fatal if they chose to use that advantage) or prisons (where a vulnerable woman could get pregnant by a male-bodied person).

I'm just asking you what you mean. Not asking you to explain the Big Bang Theory

This is Andrea Yearwood. Andrea was a fairly mediocre athlete until they decided to 'live as a woman'. Now Andrea wins all the races. By your logic, that's really unfair. I agree with you. But also by winning all the races, Andrea may well win women's sports scholarships to university - often the only way those from impoverished backgrounds can access higher education in the US.

By your logic, that bit is fair. And yet Andrea is still taking away scholarships that were intended to advance women's education. How is that any more fair than Andrea winning races?

Where’s the satisfaction for Andrea though, knowing that she’s only winning because she’s male?

papayasareyum Sponsorship? Prize money? Glory and recognition of winning Olympic / Commonwealth medals or playing for one's country?

Many people do immoral things. Ime, they are even more likely to do immoral things if fame and wealth beckon.

@ferntwist I didn't mention 'Women's Sport' - I was talking about the layer of sport where people compete just for fun.

yeah polar bear, but it’s not glory and recognition if you’ve cheated your way to gold or first prize by being a man competing against women?!
Immoral is the correct word!

I also have no idea what "living as a woman" entails, - unless of course it's due to actual, you know, biology.
I have a TIM family member. As far as I can tell the 2 years "living as a woman" involved growing their hair, wearing (extremely short) skirts, make up, nail varnish, high heels. None of which that I, and actual biological woman, does. I'm not sure I even possess any make up or nail varnish. I certainly don't own any high heels or short skirts. Does that make me not a woman? The only bits where I "live as a woman" involved pregnancy, childbirth, breastfeeding, periods, gynaecological problems etc. Oh and feeling societal pressure to shave parts of my body that men don't feel the need to in general, and which I don't want to.

So, don't flap around with your "I don't have to educate you" bullshit. You can't answer because it is true cows manure.

The OP is not being unreasonable.

YANBU. Thete has been a trans athlete try to join the recently formed national Australian Rule Football women’s league www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/aflw/transgender-footballer-hannah-mouncey-waits-on-aflw-draft-call/news-story/123a463e71aa3c4b9bbd634724ce8f75.

This is full contact, physical sport. Having a male play against females is absolutely not okay.

My 10 year old dd competes against a biological male who identifies as female. It is allowed under the national governing body rules.