To think that trans athletes have no place in women's sports?

[cdvegan2023]

I don't think most people realise how huge athletic differences between men and women are, maybe because human sexual dimorphism doesn't appear that significant on first glance?

Not too long ago John McEnroe caused quite a stir by stating that Serena would only be around the 700 spot in men's rankings. He was called sexist, a caveman, pig etc. If anything, he was being generous and PC (as much as Mac can be, anyway). Andy Murray also stated years ago that "I would be surprised if they were inside 1000" . People don't seem to understand that the 1000 guy is still a very good player and that men's tennis is not only far more physical but also more technically complex.

www.express.co.uk/sport/tennis/822372/Andy-Murray-John-McEnroe-2010-best-women-top-1000-men-Serena-Williams

In football the best women's teams lose to local 13-14 yo boys all the time. The world cup winning USA team was demolished by a Dallas boys team , 2-5. The national aussie team lost 0-7 to a random boys team of similar ages. There are countless examples like that. And these boys are no world beaters either, many of them won't even sign a pro contract in their life, never mind start for Real Madrid. If no name barely teenage boys can outplay a top adult women's team without breaking a sweat , imagine how the women would fare against grown ass men. Checking wiki I could not find a single sport where senior women had better records than junior boys. Women's olympic results are often lower than men's who do it as a hobby at their local club. And don't even get me started on violent sports.... Aibu that this is insanity?

www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/

www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/australian-womens-national-team-lose-70-to-team-of-15yearold-boys-a3257266.html

YANBU. Sports are gender segregated to account for physical differences as opposed to gender norms.

YANBU

And it shocks me that anyone can really think that it's OK (unless they are a complete misogynist, who only wants to see women back in the kitchen where they belong)

Almost every part of the human body is different for men and women. Even if I bought into the "pink brain, blue brain" stuff, it matters not one jot if the "pink brain" is sitting in a "blue body" - that blue body should only compete against other blue bodies, and leave pink bodies to compete against other pink bodies

I think it's amusing how many women clamour to show how men have every physical advantage except for brain power and in this women must be equal as any shown difference is purely down to socialisation.

On the whole, if you look at the bell curves, though, there seems very little significant difference for many psychological or intellectual comparisons, but some pretty unmistakable difference for things like height, reach and weight.

I've tried identifying as taller. Doesn't seem to be fooling anybody.

As a woman who has competed at the olympics as well as doing well professionally, I think it's amusing how many women clamour to show how men have every physical advantage except for brain power and in this women must be equal as any shown difference is purely down to socialisation. Fascinating!

Can you please explain what you mean by that?

Yes, F1 is super-physical and it probably requires great spatial ability and incredible reflexes .

YANBU, its not just testosterone levels but different physiological make ups. In para sports we have different categories depending on disability levels but we are supposed to accept male borns competing against female born, absolutely ridiculous but I think it might be a catalyst to getting people to stop blindly accepting some of the current trans dialogue.

I mean, I have competed in sailing events (winning medals). I have raced in open classes against men and women.

I get confused when women are so adamant that men have a physical advantage in every way from hips to elbows to reach to weight to height yet they recoil in horror that the brain (another muscle) could have any differences between the sexes.

It seems logically improbably to me and rather than fight it, I played to my advantages and won. Those women who don't win blame men / patriarchy / blah blah blah. Women who are successful whether mentally or physically downplay differences and believe in themselves.

The thing is that there’s clear evidence that is there for all to see that men have physical advantages over women when it comes to sport. However there is no such evidence wrt pink brains and blue brains.

It’s great that you played to your strengths and were successful, undefeatable but you could not possibly be so if your sport was, for example, 100m sprinting and a TIM decided he wanted to compete against you as a female. All those years of training and competing andyou would have no chance of winning anymore.

This is a useful Wikipedia article summarising the physiological differences between men and women. It's not a short article, because there are so many differences....

"I get confused when women are so adamant that men have a physical advantage in every way from hips to elbows to reach to weight to height yet they recoil in horror that the brain (another muscle) could have any differences between the sexes."

I don't see why you're confused about this, scientific data bears out that women and men have negligible intellectual differences while great differences in physicality. Also, the brain is not a muscle, it's an organ.

OP, YANBU. Most people seem to agree with you, so I don't really understand why this is happening.

I get confused when women are so adamant that men have a physical advantage in every way from hips to elbows to reach to weight to height yet they recoil in horror that the brain (another muscle) could have any differences between the sexes.

And yet that's what neuroscience tells us. Go figure.

And are we sure the brain is a muscle?

@SlowlyShrinking

I agree. That's why I said "I think that simple hormone tests seem the simplest way to go."

X post. I may have ton learn to read quicker...

undefeatable But you are speaking from the perspective of a sport where the differences are minimised.

Women who are successful whether mentally or physically downplay differences and believe in themselves
I was largely with you in your argument until you wrote the above. This is untrue. A woman sprinting in a race against a transsexual could believe in themselves until the cows come home, but it will not overcome the physical advantages which the transsexual has over them. The same physical advantages which are the reason we have men and women categories in sporting events in the first place.

undefeatable

By the way, the brain is not a muscle.

It seems logically improbably to me and rather than fight it, I played to my advantages and won. Those women who don't win blame men / patriarchy / blah blah blah. Women who are successful whether mentally or physically downplay differences and believe in themselves

Yet you had a boat between you and a bloke. I play rugby. There are very definite physiological differences between men and women that would make it undesirable and down right dangerous for women to be forced to play with men.

YANBU and I agree with the poster who said:
This is cheating not competing

I get confused when women are so adamant that men have a physical advantage in every way from hips to elbows to reach to weight to height yet they recoil in horror that the brain (another muscle) could have any differences between the sexes.

Yea, I've always wondered how our most important organ has remained completely untouched by evolution when pretty much every single thing in our bodies is different : height, weight, hormones, skin, bones, tendons, ligaments, what vitamins we need, the way we react to drugs, the way we handle strokes, heart attack symptoms and probably another 500 differences I'm forgetting right now . Somehow the epicenter, the very thing that defines us as humans has remained completely untouched over millions of years of mammal evolution and hundreds of thousands of H. Sapiens.

@FlowerPot

I think men are likely to be physically more proficient in most arenas than women and that's why I said there should be hormone tests. You get no argument from me there.

I made a mistake between the brain being an organ or muscle. However, it seems that organs are quickly identifiable as male or female in any post-mortem test. It's modern feminism that doesn't like such conclusions. I grew up celebrating the differences and believing in everyone having the same chance as opposed to denying the differences but somehow fighting for equity as opposed to equality.

YANBU

Feminists don’t claim that there are no physical differences between men and women, undefeatable there clearly are. We argue that women shouldn’t be treated as second class citizens because of those differences. Having men competing against women clearly disadvantages women. If this becomes widespread then it’ll be the end of women’s sport, except for sailing, dressage and archery

YANBU. I completely agree that transwomen should not be able to compete in women's sport. It is obvious that males have a huge advantage over women in physical strength, and body development etc that is not reduced after transition. I feel for a TIM who would be ruled out of women's sport by their transition, but it is not dissimilar for people with some disabilties who don't have an appropriate category to compete in. Or people in pain, who people with poor co-ordination. It is something we just have to learn to live with and find another outlet.

There can surely be no real sense of achievement in beating women who have no actual chance of beating you. It is not sporting at all and certainly not in the spirit of the Olympics.

However, I do find some of your wording strange though OP, you don't sound as though you respect women's sport. The effort/ difficulty is the same but it is more like the difference between racing greyhounds vs whippets, rather than greyhounds vs amoeba.

And I must just add for accuracy; equestrian sports do not take strength - for throwing around haybales yes. For handling the horse you ride? No, that's not how it is meant to be done. So Barbaro if you are using so much strength to stay on your horse, then sadly you really are doing it wrong! It takes fitness, suppleness, balance, dexterity, control over your own body and 'feel', but absolutely not strength. That is why men and women can compete on equal terms.

Yes, F1 does take a lot of strength. The G forces are huge. Racing drivers have become so small and light these days that most male drivers would be excluded for being to tall and heavy. David Coulthard has talked about the pressure on him to be thin and light so he could meet the weight restrictions, similar to the pressures that jockeys face. Mark Webber was also incredibly lean. So from this perspective I think it could just about be possible for an exceptional woman to succeed, but the barriers to entry are so great eg finance and sponsorship. Thankfully we have already had female F1 drivers and female F1 race winner so that honour cannot be hijacked claimed by a transwoman.

And surely the original intention was for women's sport to be segregated for biological sex not gender. It is clearly wrong for men to push women out of sports (and rights and places) that women have fought for.

I strongly disagree with transgender "women" competing in women's categories.

However as PP have mentioned there are a handful of sports where sex is irrelevant (eg. Equestrianism).

In rock climbing (real rock outside, not plastic inside) women have been quietly closing the gap over the last few years. With 16 year old Japanese/ American climber Ashima Shiraishi widely considered to be the best climber ever for her age...she is truly amazing.

So sex is certainly not an issue for all sports.

YANBU. I have no issue with transwomen competing with women in areas where size and strength are not an advantage, though I am struggling to think of any sports where that would be the case tbh.

I don't think transmen should be able to compete with women either IF they are on testosterone as its clearly doping.