to let you know how men use the Equality Act to undermine women's spaces

[pisacake]

This is Liam. Liam was a 17-year-old Harry Potter fan (photo here from his Twitter).

twitter.com/iamLilyTM/status/639376063655739392

Liam doesn't appear to have too much interest in running, but nonetheless got very upset that there are women-only runs, in addition to the thousands that are open to men.

He thinks this is similar to apartheid, or Rosa Parks being told to go to the back of the bus. twitter.com/iamLilyTM/status/637324189733666816 (August 2015)

Being kept out annoys Liam. (And a lot of other MRAs alike who get REALLY angry at not being allowed to join, despite their being literally thousands of other places to run.)

But wait! An idea! If Liam says he is a girl, he will be able to go wherever he likes including all those women-only runs he was so cruelly rebuffed from.

After all, at one time the Race for Life was able to be kept relatively man-free, as Cancer Research said:

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20120528181520/raceforlife.cancerresearchuk.org/utilities/faqs/who-can-enter/index.html" rel="nofollow noindex" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20120528181520/raceforlife.cancerresearchuk.org/utilities/faqs/who-can-enter/index.html

"Under the Gender Recognition Act 2004 we are happy to accept entries from individuals who possess a female birth certificate or gender recognition certificate. However, as Race for Life is a female-only event we have a promise and responsibility to our female supporters to ensure our Race for Life events are represented by women only. Therefore, if you do not have either a gender recognition certificate or a female birth certificate, we are afraid you will not be able to participate in Race for Life. "

But this didn't last long! The Equality Act 2010 came along and it said

"A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process [of changing gender]". So anyone who is even THINKING about changing gender is protected, and you better be careful about crossing them.

So Raceforlife quickly deleted the requirement for a GRC, and just to confirm this.

twitter.com/CharlotteMedler/status/604486954785357824

"Hey @raceforlife what is your opinion on pre-op women running? Does having a wang mean I can't do it? Let me know, pls."

The reply:
"hello, transgender women are welcome to take part in our events, so we'd love to have you :)"

Message has got through loud and clear to Liam, a few months later Liam says he is a girl called Lily (this declaration isn't really accompanied by any action, though he has had one Gender clinic appointment, where he got some handouts about hormones).

He tells his school. Some people, including his younger sister, are unhappy about his behaviour.

But not to worry, he looks up 'solicitor' on Google, and finds a firm of solicitor who represent teenage Harry Potter fans wanting access to women & girls spaces, completely for free! www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/this-trans-teen-threatened-her-school-with-legal-action-to-w Awesome! Free lawyers!Totally no consequences!

Emboldened, he moves on, with his MRA activity, getting a woman kicked kicked out of a neighbouring constituency Labour party:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5087503/All-Labour-officials-local-committee-resign.html

Then he's elected women's officer in his own CLP.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-teenager-lily-madigan-voted-in-as-a-labour-women-s-officer-mwchkhzq8

Then people point out that he seems to own a Twitter account with blowjob, rape, Jimmy Savile & curry jokes. He says it's fake then it's pointed out it's dated 2013 so unlikely to be, and finally he blames his younger brother for the acocunt and says his family is racist, sexist and homophobic and that's why he has moved on from them.

www.kentlive.news/news/kent-news/transgender-labour-womens-officer-rochester-817234

Said brother is not impressed and calls him out publicly for throwing him under the bus

twitter.com/madigan_smurf/status/933760359810428928

Lily/Liam is a big fan of Jeremy Corbyn, who for his own part has said that, as a genuine 100% authentic transwoman, Lily/Liam can do whatever he wants. www.facebook.com/MedwayLabour/posts/1506650112756340

As if all these weren't enough, he's now being sponsored for a Women in Leadership programme in by Tris Osborne, a (male, natch) Labour candidate in Luton. twitter.com/cllrtrisosborne/status/934368405993508864

Rosa Parks eat your heart out eh? Look who's got the last laugh now! Silly women wanting a race without men in it!

[Judashascomeintosomemoney]

Pisa excellent posts as usual. Typical mistake for inexperienced teenagers to make isn’t it? What happens on the internet, stays on the internet, and someone will always find it. I’d like to think Anne Ruzylo is an Mnetter, reading your thread and realising that being one of the first tranche of women thrown under this particular bus, her name at least helped to wake others up. And you, Pisa. And Datun. And all the others. Until I joined This Place, this was not on my radar. I’m not that brave yet but, IRL, I’ve been explaining this to my friends, male and female, who so far have all been horrified at the implications of something they all thought they were being progressive and tolerant in supporting.

[unplugmefromthematrix]

I barely have the words to describe how bad this all is.

Re Tris Osborne; I have no real idea who he is other than from his attachment to this story, but I have some questions..

Has Osborne sponsored other women into politics in this most public way? No?

Hmm, funny isn't it, how the first 'woman' Osborne seems to have been motivated to help so publically is a 19 year old boy....

Has Tris Osborne never met any young female humans that he wanted to help get into poltics? No? Is that because biological girls are typically socialised not to be interested in politics and not to put themselves forward?

But look here is a young man who feels that he can put himslef forward (despite no real qualification) precisely because he has not grown up as a girl...

Or has Osborne not sponsored young female women so publically because actually, he has no real interest in helping women suceed in politics unless they these women are infact, young men...

And Miliband thinks that objections are hysterical...

[ferntwist]

Excellent questions for this Tris character. He should be asked to justify himself.

[RedToothBrush]

Is that a new Twitter account for Lily Madigan? Only 25 tweets and 35 followers seems very few for a 19 year old, much less a politically active one

The account had a pile of other tweets earlier this week. Including one that said they didn't use twitter because it was a dying format.

Lily seems to be deleting tweets on a weekly basis.

Lily was also deleting messages on FB earlier this week. Why? Because they said that Saville account was one set up by someone else to discredit them for being trans. When it was asked how this could have been done because the account and the tweets were from 2013.

Lily likes to only have followers who agree with Lily. This creates an echo chamber. Whilst I understand the fear Lily might have here, Lily is blocking and deleting reasonable challenges as well as outright and clear transphobia. This is an unhealthy trait in someone who is supposed to be listening to the views of as wide a possible spectrum of women and then represent those views and interests. And even more worrying in someone who wants to gain a prestigious place on the Jo Cox programme.

The thing Jo Cox is remembered for advocating finding common interests and bridging divides in politics, not creating them. About bringing people together and not polarising and inflaming tensions.

This should worry you regardless of whether you think Lily is male or female because its profoundly authoritarian and anti-democratic principles.

I am personally worried whether being trans will become a shield to prevent scrutiny of behaviour that any other person would be questioned over. Having any scrutiny, because they are trans, is somehow transphobic? The point being that women who are concerned that issues relating to the politics of biology will be ignored because they have concerns over the behaviour of this individual.

Will these views have less of a voice because a trans woman is not talking about them? Remembering of course that this trans woman has taken the place of the someone who would have talked about the politics of biology.

I challenge Owen to keep an eye on Lily to see how the politics of the biology of women is represented. If the only thing we see is politics of transwomen, then there is an issue and Lily is in the wrong job and should have left the job for someone to take on those issues whilst Lily tackles the politics of trans people.

If Lily fails to represent women properly, then women absolutely and completely have the right to criticise and ask some very serious questions.

This is ultimately why it DOES matter whether Lily is trans or not and why it DOES matter that Lily is held accountable and why the public SHOULD have a right to know. Because its about the politics of representation.

Women are afraid that some time in the future, it will otherwise be possible for all the positions put aside to help women get their voices heard in a democratic forum about issues relating to their biology, will be taken up by people who do not have those threats and disadvantages and don't understand or value those problems in the same way.

Women need reassurance that they will be properly represented, rather than this be someone who has a personal agenda that doesn't match what they are concerned about.

Its not that trans women don't have a place in politics. Its about whether a person is capable to doing the job they are elected to do well. For a trans woman to take on the role of women's offer they need to demonstrate that they have the understanding, interest and ability of the issues they are supposed to be tackling.

The jury is still very firmly out on Lily on that score.

Not only that, TRAs as a whole also don't seem to be fully representing their own community properly. There are concerns over whether they are listening to everyone and whether the action they are taking is in the best interests of the trans community as a whole. But the issue is because they are the loudest, most vocal and aggressive they are dominating to the point of intimidation over more moderate voices.

There are reasons why the current approach is potentially harmful not least because the agenda being pushed so aggressively isn't winning the support of many women, and indeed is alienating them. This has the potential to create a backlash - The Times article is merely reflecting voices in society with concerns. This is being dismissed by many on the left as just being 'the right being nasty' on the premise that its The Times. Nothing more than that. The Times job as a newspaper is to provide scrutiny in a democracy. The same way the Guardian's job is to provide scrutiny in a democracy.

In a free democracy we should be asking questions about democracy without fear. We should be scrutinising decisions which have the potential to reduce representation. We should not assume that they will increase representation because of the law of unintended consequences when it comes to legislation being used for purposes that are not the ones for which they were intended.

Now Owen, if you have bothered to read this thread, which I'm sure you won't because you are too utterly convinced in your own righteousness in the pursuit of utopia to listen and get out of your bubble of opinion and experience how about writing about this properly.

Except you won't because even if you have got this far, you don't do that. You are not a journalist, you are an opinion column writer and your reputation is all about reputation and following and getting clicks with a certain audience. You aren't about scrutiny. You write shit about journalism as if you've just discovered that political bias in the media is a new thing which I learnt at GSCE level media studies 25 years ago. Not only that but you are cheerleader in the politics of polarisation and the creation of 'them v us' rather than politics which could help this country rather than divide it. You are the anti-Jo Cox of the left.

Liberalism and progressive politics are not served by your kind. Utopia can not be found without consensus. It can not be achieved by sitting in its echo chamber with blinkers to reality and a lack of self awareness and self scrutiny.

Owen Jones can kiss my ass as a champion of democracy and representation. He hasn't a fucking clue what it means and actively ignores it, when it suits his agenda. He is a fully paid up member and advocate of the Trumpian strategy that Corbyn has been advised to follow.

Beware of those who promise you a utopian dream in politics. History has a poor track record of those who do, from both the left and right because life is not as simple and easy and straightforward as they insist it is.

[unplugmefromthematrix]

And do you know what I havne't seen specifically mentioned yet - the risk to vulnerable disabled women - what about women with learning disabilities and physical disabilities who rely on carers? They will find it even harder to speak up for themsleves if they are being abused and of course would usually only be in private spaces or having personal care from other (biological women)

^This needs flagging up asap. Apologies of course if this has been mentioned.


i should have realised sooner... being unwell myself means that usually I can't post only read a few things on MN, and it is so much harder for ill and disabled people to speak up becasue we are too busy being ill, and coping with disability, struggling with technlogy etc to advocate for oursleves.

[Traffig]

Very helpful time line and explanations thank you.
Appreciate Mumsnet having the courage to stand by the thread.
I've learned a lot today.

Can I ask a question please?

I read on this thread that allegedly LM has been in the Labour Party 6 months only?
Is there no Labour Party rule that states a person must be a member for a certain period of time prior to taking up a position such as Women's officer?
I know it to be the case in some trades unions.

[BeyondAssignation]

Yy unplug

[Judashascomeintosomemoney]

Miliband thinks that objections are hysterical...
Does he indeed? And does he understand the origin of that word? And does he know the group of people most at risk of disadvantage from this proposed legislation? Because if the answer is yes to all of those, what does that make him?

[Judashascomeintosomemoney]

unplug but isn’t that one of the very few types of jobs that can currently, legitimately, advertise for women/men only (depending on the client requiring the care). So surely it follows if this legislation is passed that can still be modified to make it legal to request only natal women/men as appropriate will be considered? Ha ha ha, hollow laugh.

[RemainOptimistic]

Terrifying. But thank you pisa

[pisacake]

I'm not sure if Ed used the specific word 'hysterical', but he's clearly drunk the kool aid

cheerful.libsyn.com/episode-9-transgender-rights-are-human-rights

No wait, he did. Over and over again

twitter.com/Ed_Miliband/status/930053640181698562
twitter.com/Ed_Miliband/status/932523939598946304

Nm.

[MrsKnightley]

What about teachers? Residential homes for troubled kids? Will you be able to identify as female and get access to all vulnerable groups? What if, like Huntley, you have passed police checks to work in a school because you don't have a police record?

[pisacake]

One thing I DON'T understand, is that he speaks with people who so obviously have no credibility. He's not thick, degree from Oxford, leader of the Labour party, yet he chose to meet

" Dr Helen Webberley, a doctor who works with trans young people who explain why advances in trans rights are Reasons To Be Cheerful."

Dr. Webberley has been suspended by the GMC for handing out hormones like sweeties

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-41213534

And she runs a website where you can obtain all manner of off-label drugs such as finasteride

gendergp.co.uk/fees/

Finasteride is an medication properly used for male pattern baldness & prostate enlargement , which has some 'mild' side-effects "such as depression, anxiety, and suicidal ideation.


At the bottom Ed links to Mermaids, a charity started by a woman who is proud that she flew her son to Thailand to have full transgender surgery age 16, and subsequently entered him into female beauty pageants. This charity was banned from contacting a young boy of 5 after egging on his mother to make him trans, in spite of strong evidence that he was not. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3054431-Mermaids-story-in-the-Sunday-Times-today?pg=2

[pisacake]

Those Miliband guests in full:

1. Helen Webberley - bonkers GP, not allowed to practise unsupervised, runs online trans clinic.
   
2. @DadTrans - works for Mermaids
   
3. Paris Lees - trans rentaquote, invited to Mumsnet blogfest www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2775504-Why-is-Paris-Lees-speaking-at-Mumsnet-and-are-MN-seeking-Spartacus-tees
   
4. Miranda Kane - former dominatrix sex worker

[Judashascomeintosomemoney]

He's not thick, degree from Oxford, leader of the Labour party, yet he chose to meet....
He’s just scared, like so many people right now, of the backlash from the movement behind The Emperors New Gender Fluid Clothes.

[Judashascomeintosomemoney]

I almost don’t blame them

[shorty6768]

I don’t agree with women only shortlists, I find them quite offensive actually. However, if Lilly is meant to represent women’s issues in parliament I’m not sure how many of these issues Lilly will have experienced first hand. But then again, she can’t do any worse than Naz Shah.

[ferntwist]

Seriously disappointing of Ed Miliband. He's drunk on the KoolAid.
We need to get to Corbyn fast. Anyone got contacts?

[Betty185]

Thank-you to all the posters who have taken the time to educate us on these issues. I see the posts shouting 'transphobe!' have reduced a lot as more and more of us have come to understand the risks to women and girls.

[pisacake]

Liam mus really want to run that 5k in pink for cancer!


No doubt he'll be there.

Tonight he's violating another female-only event, Reclaim The Night

www.reclaimthenight.co.uk/

"London Reclaim The Night is a women-only march. "

So a boy who specialises in rape & Jimmy Savile jokes is on a protest march against rape.

[MrsKnightley]

Why is he carrying a sign sponsored by a teaching union? Random sign or coming to a classroom near you as a teacher?

[PovertyPain]

shorty I wish we didn't have women only lists too, but also wish that women don't face being physically and sexually assaulted, being treated like sex objects from the time they're old enough to walk to school by themselves, still being expected to do 'wife work', repeatedly overlooked for promotion, being under presented in government, stem roles, etc etc.

When women are truely listened to and treated as equals, then we won't need women only lists. The fact that even those roles are being taken over by men pretending to be women, proves that our needs are still not being respected.

[pisacake]

Not sure about the teaching union, but the trans activists have been wanting in on Reclaim The Night for years.

Women on a protest march about rape were lectured about cis privilege by men. www.thefword.org.uk/2010/10/why_cis_attende/

"trans women are many, many times more likely to be raped, killed or discriminated against on the basis of their gender than cis women"

This is false of course, there are vanishingly few cases of murder of trans people in the UK.

They were lectured about their 'problematic past' for opposing prostitution and not wanting men in a women's space.

exepose.com/2016/11/15/truly-feminist-reclaim-the-night-and-their-problematic-quest/

[PovertyPain]

These fucking men don't want us to have any place to call ours, do they? And the fucking handmaidens are so busy trying to please them, the they're letting the in.

Thank you Mumsnet for letting women FINALLY have a place to discuss our fears and anger at this Orwellian world.

[FritzDonovan]

That's an excellent post pisa. Clearly set out and not 'hysterical' in the slightest. I will be forwarding this thread to dh, as we are in the middle of disagreement on these issues at the moment. Keep it coming!
Sadly, I suspect he won't read past the first few paragraphs, he has already dismissed much of what I have said on the subject because I 'read it on mumsnet'. Despite the articles coming from a variety of sources. Yet he cannot see how dismissive he is being. #whydoibother