To think the Nativity story is more worrying in terms of consent issues than sleeping beauty etc?

[grobagsforever]

Inspired by the sleeping beauty discussion (but not a TAT). I agree that the message of men kissing women who can't consent is a damaging message for young girls but I'm baffled as to why more people aren't concerned about children being exposed to the nativity.

Mary is impregnated by a male God. In the biblical version she is 'asked' (although how she'd have the courageous to refuse I don't know) but in the children's Christmas version the line is usually something like 'The (male) angel appeared and told Mary she was to have a baby'

Then a mute Mary is transported by donkey at the request of another man, made to give birth in a stable and then visited postpartum by a series of men! All without her explicit consent or consultation.

Am I the only person who thinks this story should not be taught to young children??

I thought David Ike was the new self proclaimed Son of God?

He might be Fancied.
If there was a second coming would anyone believe them? Even if they performed a miracle people would write it off as a trick.

Not read the whole thread. Assume this has already been said but ill say it again anyway as it really fucks me off.

MARY WAS THE IMMACULATE CONCEPTION, NOT JESUS.

Immaculate conception means mary herself was conceived without sin. It has fuck all to do with the conception / birth of Jesus.

C0untDucku1a So what you're saying is the conception of jesus was sinful?

I am not Christian or religious but wasn't Mary impregnated without intercourse (i.e. an 'immaculate conception'?).

I was in my 30s before I realised Gabriel was male. I suppose because the angels were always played by girls and Gabriel sounded a girly name to me.

Madhairday, you did seem to be suggesting that their oral history was reliable because it was so accurate, not that we should consider it within it's cultural context.

However a person shouting ‘the word of God’ in the street asked me if I believed. I said that I didn’t and he replied that I was going to Hell. Will that do?

That reminds me of the lovely bunch from a local church who preach in the town centre near me most weekends. It's a mainly Hindu area & these charmers stand there with their microphones announcing that anyone who doesn't believe in Christ is going to hell.

Most people roll their eyes & ignore them.

@logicalmum - freedoom, tolerance and kindness were not invented by christians, the UK is great because of its multiculturalism, location, diversity and acceptance, please don't assign credit to the Church.

No i'm sorry but i WILL credit all that to the church. Our multiculturalism, diversity and acceptance would not be in place if it WASNT for Christianity.

All the freedoms and multiculturalism that we enjoy in our country is because of our strong Christian heritage, the foundations of which were laid down by our Christian forebears years before. We live in one of the most tolerant welcoming countries in the world. We have our Christian forebears to thank for that. Without it our country would be nothing like it is today.

I'm glad i live in a Christian country, i bet all those who don't wouldn't be happy with the alternative.

I'm glad i live in a Christian country, i bet all those who don't wouldn't be happy with the alternative

What's the alternative? A country with people with a range of faiths or none, people who have morals on how to live with each other.

Where was Christianity at about 400 years ago? Was it Christian to murder people who were of a different faith or even a different sect to you?

Where was Christianity 200 years ago? Was it Christian to have slaves? To make profits out of slavery? How many of the mill owners used slave labour to profit from and still went to Church on Sundays?

Where was Christianity when gay people were being imprisoned? When women were denied the right to vote? When rape was legal in marriage? When women were being jailed and worse for protesting?
Where was Christianity when priests were abusing children?

Where is Christianity when children use food banks? When weapons are sold to countries who use them to kill innocent people?

Christianity was in power. In Parliament. In the Monarchy. All good Christian people going to church at the weekend, praying before they start their work in Government.

No doubt there are many good things the Church does. No doubt. But a lot of people in power who claim to be Christians have forgotten what Jesus said.

logicalmum, but this country only really became diverse and accepting following the Enlightenment, when people started to reject religion and move towards secularism. It's also incredibly dismissive of perfectly decent, non-Christian places and people. They idea that Christianity is the only civilising force on the planet is wrong, arrogant and massively western-centric.

these charmers stand there with their microphones announcing that anyone who doesn't believe in Christ is going to hell.
Somehow that doesn't seem as bad as "all Christians must be killed by beheading", (what young boys were being taught in a Saudi school, recently shown on TV)
Kind of gets things in perspective that.

Somehow that doesn't seem as bad as "all Christians must be killed by beheading", (what young boys were being taught in a Saudi school, recently shown on TV

Whataboutery?

Just because those people say that doesn't mean it's ok for other people to shout at people they are going to Hell?

Does it?

I don't think quoting an example of extremism from another religion exonerates extreme Christianity. It's only a few hundred years ago that members of one Christian sect were burning members of another Christian sect at the stake in this country.

Of course some of the values we live by today are taught by the Christian church, but many of them are taught by other world religions too and most of them are practised by people of no faith.

And even if what you say is true (which I dispute) - that our values today have been solely inculcated by Christianity - great. We can take the good bits and move on. Humankind is constantly learning and constantly making mistakes. If some of the way we organise our society today is because of the teachings of the church, we can still keep those we think are worthy without having to believe in a virgin birth and a resurrection.

Mary herself was conceived in the normal way. This would normally mean that she inherited the sin of Adam. However according to the Catholic Church God personally intervened at the moment of conception to keep her sin-free and “Immaculate”.

Jesus was not conceived in the normal way and was inherently sin-free on the grounds of being God.

No it's not ok for some people to shout to others they're going to hell. But what has that to do with the largest religion in the world. You're talking about a few random nutters. I'm a grown adult and i can honestly say no one has ever shouted that to me in the street. Theres nutters in all religions.

It's only a few hundred years ago that members of one Christian sect were burning members of another Christian sect at the stake
Fortunately we've moved on from that, unlike muslims who are still at it.

sagamartha the people you're talking about are obviously Christian in name only. A true Christian believes in "do unto others as you would be done by*.

The church has had far too many evil people claiming to be "Christian " over the years, nuns, priests, vicars included. They weren't fit to be called Christian. There are also people in government claiming to be Christian, they too are none of the sort. That doesn't mean though that all Christians are tarred with the same brush. The majority are good.

Really? All muslims? Did you mean to sound so incredibly bigoted?

'the people you're talking about are obviously Christian in name only.'

Ah, the no true Scotsman analogy. Nope, they're part of your 'gang', accept them.

I was in my 30s before I realised Gabriel was male.

Angels are neither male nor female... so you were just as right (wrong) when you were a child!

but this country only really became diverse and accepting following the Enlightenment, when people started to reject religion and move towards secularism

Exactly- let us praise the European Enlightenment

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment?wprov=sfla1

Haha I'm in my 60s now and still don't know stuff about angels!

Really? All muslims? Did you mean to sound so incredibly bigoted?
Where did i say "all muslims",....ffs talk about looking for any perceived insult. But bloody hell, the absolute unbelievable irony, a thread that is full to bursting with "bigotry" against Christians and you accuse me of something i haven't even said. But it's ok, carry on with the bigotry, or is it ok, because it's just Christianity we're talking about.

'

Ah, the no true Scotsman analogy. Nope, they're part of your 'gang', accept them.
Isn't it the analogy that muslims use when Islamic terrorists carry out yet another mass killing. But we can't do the same?