To think the Nativity story is more worrying in terms of consent issues than sleeping beauty etc?

[grobagsforever]

Inspired by the sleeping beauty discussion (but not a TAT). I agree that the message of men kissing women who can't consent is a damaging message for young girls but I'm baffled as to why more people aren't concerned about children being exposed to the nativity.

Mary is impregnated by a male God. In the biblical version she is 'asked' (although how she'd have the courageous to refuse I don't know) but in the children's Christmas version the line is usually something like 'The (male) angel appeared and told Mary she was to have a baby'

Then a mute Mary is transported by donkey at the request of another man, made to give birth in a stable and then visited postpartum by a series of men! All without her explicit consent or consultation.

Am I the only person who thinks this story should not be taught to young children??

The Nativity story isn’t really anything to do with sexual consent, as the whole point was that there was no sex!... Mary was a virgin!

It may not portray Mary as a sexually liberated 21st woman, and the story is set in a patriarchal context... But if we have an issue with this, we need to cut out pretty much all traditional stories!

Well, whether she had sex or not she was impregnated, which is pretty invasive and would also need consent - Artificial Insemination by a Deity, I suppose.

Banning Sleeping Beauty or the Nativity reminds me a bit of those 1970s anti-racism campaigners who tried to change “Baa has black sheep”... ie taking a worthy ideal and stretching it to absurd lengths, -and undermining their position as a result.

Great post strawberry

@coconuttella and what would actually lose by cutting out the nativity and other fairy tales which contain misogynistic elements? Why should 'tradition' be a good enough reason to retain them? My DD, aged 7, reads none of them. She reads books about female scientists and other positive role models.

@Strawberrybubblebath - who said Christians need to be perfect? I'd just live a reduction in the state school mandated misogyny

How ironic that those who criticise Christianity enjoy the freedoms and tolerance of a country whose very foundations are built on solid Christian values, and continue to benefit from. What a soulless, bleak place it would be without it.

A 7 year old reads books on scientists?

@logicalmum - freedoom, tolerance and kindness were not invented by christians, the UK is great because of its multiculturalism, location, diversity and acceptance, please don't assign credit to the Church.

@logicalmum yes she does. Would you like some links to age appropriate books on famous scientists?

However a person shouting ‘the word of God’ in the street asked me if I believed. I said that I didn’t and he replied that I was going to Hell. Will that do?
No it won't do, that's just a random religious nut, and really, how many times has that happened in your life. Why would you form an opinion because of one random person.

Reading through some posts I find it odd that atheists expect Christians to be perfect.

Where did any atheist say that Christians should be perfect?

Why would you form an opinion because of one random person.

You said that you didn’t believe it happened. I told you about a time it did.

Anyway, he wasn’t one random person, he had 12 mates with him.

Ahhh this thread has made my night! the OP made me laugh, I've had a small giggle at the '' posters, and other responses have been pure gold 'maybe Gabriel was getting desperate by then'

It really wasn't worth mentioning what one nut said to you, there's nutters everywhere, but you say there was 13 of them, what all telling you you were going to hell?

also Joan Get to Fuck will you? Derek get this wingy bastard pervert out my house!

FFS Op. Mary's story is a rehash of stories from various other mythologies. We'd have to reject the entire Ancient Greek mythology and never mention it to children as Zeus was known for using his powers to have his way with women. And how about the Knights of the Round Table? Arthur was conceived in what was essentially rape. Do you want to forbid the children watching Excalibur?
We need to stop trying to politically overcorrectise everything. Mary wasn't raped, she was told before anything happened and considered it an honour. She still could have said no, thank you or go and have a wild party to show how mistaken God was about her character.
I am an atheist, btw. and I don't believe in any divine powers or immaculate conceptions. I still don't consider the conception of Jesus an example of divine rape as the story doesn't talk about any physical intercourse, she is called virgin for a reason.

The nativity would be way better if it focussed more on Jesus having two dads. And the donkey. Everyone likes the donkey.

The nativity is rubbish now it often involves confused aliens.

My 12 year old reads books on science and all things space related. She has done since she could read. I've noticed her latest choice of a light read is "Relativity and Eintstein". So logicalmum please do not doubt some of us. My DD does intend to work for NASA. She also enjoyed "Winnie the Witch" and the Dork Diaries so she is perfectly normal.

Einstein not Eintstein!

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Love thy neighbour.
None are perfect, but with forgiveness, there is hope.

The Christians weren't very tolerant when they were torturing and burning at the stake were they?

To ascribe our tolerant UK outlook as based on Christianity is missing the point that we are mostly a secular population. Those where a religion has a stranglehold over the people seems to have far less tolerance.

Wasn't it as recently as the 1970s that young girls and their babies were still being treated in the most barbaric ways by Nuns?

The original point is in our changing society perhaps our daughters, and sons, need to know some of our other cultural stories from times when women were actually less oppressed. Once upon a time there were Matriarchal times.
Perhaps it is a time for more balance? Yes enjoy the Little Mermaid (give up everything for the love of a cheating man) but also learn the story of The Seal Woman's Seal Joy (the strength of a daughter's love).

grobags Though I don't ascribe to the values in Sleeping Beauty or the Greek myths I do think it's important for my DCs to know about their cultural foundations, and it's possible to discuss what's not ideal about them at the same time.

If xtians are loving and tolerant how do you explain Donald Trump becoming President because of the Christian vote?

Mad Not a random list, mostly related to deliberate misinformation by church officials to trick and convert people. You still haven't proved that most scholars think Jesus was real, this really isn't true, infact the opposite, but easier for people than admitting than your whole life has been based on huge obvious lie.

We need to stop trying to politically overcorrectise everything. Mary wasn't raped, she was told before anything happened and considered it an honour. She still could have said no, thank you or go and have a wild party to show how mistaken God was about her character

The thing about the story about King Arthur, the Greek Gods etc is that we don't celebrate them now.

But Christianity and the story of the conception and birth of Jesus are a key part of our culture. This story is told every year and our young children discuss this story at school every year and are told we celebrate.

If a primary school child asked a question about the power imbalance in this conception (if they have been listening to the news), what should the say? I think the school versions tend to say that Gabriel TOLD Mary she was going to have a baby and that it was God's son.

It really wasn't worth mentioning what one nut said to you, there's nutters everywhere, but you say there was 13 of them, what all telling you you were going to hell?

I was being facetious.
I was writing down what one man and his 12 friends had said and done. According to you this is not true.

However 2000 years ago someone can write down what one man and his 12 friends had done 30 years after the event and that is true.

I’m sure there was a man called Jesus, I’m sure he was a good man and told people to be kind to one another and helped a lot of people. However it is a big leap from that to being the son of god.