To think the Nativity story is more worrying in terms of consent issues than sleeping beauty etc?

[grobagsforever]

Inspired by the sleeping beauty discussion (but not a TAT). I agree that the message of men kissing women who can't consent is a damaging message for young girls but I'm baffled as to why more people aren't concerned about children being exposed to the nativity.

Mary is impregnated by a male God. In the biblical version she is 'asked' (although how she'd have the courageous to refuse I don't know) but in the children's Christmas version the line is usually something like 'The (male) angel appeared and told Mary she was to have a baby'

Then a mute Mary is transported by donkey at the request of another man, made to give birth in a stable and then visited postpartum by a series of men! All without her explicit consent or consultation.

Am I the only person who thinks this story should not be taught to young children??

some absolutely disgusting remarks about Christianity

What disgusting remarks have been made?

Those that insult the Christian God ARE also insulting the Muslim God at the same time

The God in the New Testament always seems a bit different to the God in the Old Testament. Less smiting in the New Testament.

Julie8008 Maybe you should educate yourself instead of saying such disgusting offensive things.

Yes, why is he so horrible in the OT? People saying on here how loving he is etc, that's not how I remember the stories.

Saskia, I don't think I'd said that C1 oral tradition was completely mistake free, just that we should consider the cultural background if we're going to consider the events. The biblical accounts themselves have their own differences - it would be suspicious if they were all exactly the same, after all. But yes, that oral history was fairly impressive - they memorized the first 5 books of the OT in their entirety. I couldn't begin to know how to do that...

I agree. All ‘bollocks to you all I’m going to kill you all in a flood’ and then all loving later on. (Unless you are putting your willy in another man’s bum, he hates that).
If he was someone’s husband on MN people would be asking if it might be an early sign of dementia.

To a point, sagamartha but its not quite that straightforward. There are still some bits in the New Testament which don't fit perfectly with the peaceful, perfectly merciful image that most of us have of Christianity:

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

Matthew 10:34

Scaredy, I'm so sorry to hear about your DS. That sounds awful. I'm so sad to hear your experience of Christians has been so shocking. You must feel very angry towards Christians.

I'm not sure what the random list of questions were or the last question about naming exact numbers of scholars that would be an impossible task. I can more easily number the amount of scholars of repute who assert that Jesus didn't exist though, and that's one, and his repute is on shaky ground compared to other biblical scholars who are rigourously peer reviewed. I wish I could tell you numbers, but that would mean I'd have counted every scholar in every institution and all the ones who have gone before, as well... I know I'm enthusiastic about the subject, but not that enthusiastic

This may help, from a wiki article on the historicity of Jesus: "Virtually all New Testament scholars and Near East historians, applying the standard criteria of historical investigation, find that the historicity of Jesus is effectively certain". They disagree on what he did/claimed/thought, but fairly unanimously agree on his existence.

as a film it would fail the Bechdel test
Surely Mary goes and talks to Elizabeth, OK it's about their (male) babies but presumably also about the (sexless) angel and their pregnancies?

I'm sure her and Elizabeth talked about other things too when they met up.

Matthew 10 is interesting.Jesus commanded his disciples to say lots.

That bit never got mentioned at school.

Mary gave her consent to bearing God's son. She was the normal age in that culture and time for getting married and having babies.
What is the concern OP?

This stupid, goady post really didn't deserve 11 pages of responses. It wasn't even funny. I'd love it if shit like this just fell down the page with tumbleweed blowing past it.

squishysquirmy
Definitely would have been some talk about in-laws, whatever needlework or gardening or cooking tips were current, and why their other cousin thinks she's so great when everyone knows she burns her pitta bread.

Mary gave her consent to bearing God's son. She was the normal age in that culture and time for getting married and having babies.
What is the concern OP?

Because it's important not to normalise the morals of a different age, it was normal and appropriate for teachers to cane their students, it was normal and appropriate for people to own slaves, etc. etc.

Yet, whilst we would teach children about these things, we would always caveat it with how inappropriate and wrong it was. Yet here we have a child and a person of absolute power over them abusing that power, and quite the opposite of telling people who bad it is, it's applauded and celebrated.

Reading through some posts I find it odd that atheists expect Christians to be perfect. The whole point is that NO ONE is perfect. Everyone does things wrong, even saints. I know I do things wrong all the time despite trying not to. We are only human and make mistakes all the time and God understands that - he has experienced being human.

That is why God gave Jesus to take our sins on his shoulders for us, so that ANYONE who chooses to accept His gift of forgiveness can go to heaven if they want to. Some people don't want to accept Gods gift and that is absolutely no problem - God has given us free will to choose to love him or not. True love can't be forced or it isn't true.

You don't have to be a Christian to be a good person - everyone knows that - the story of the Good Samaritan is preached all the time in church. Same as Christians don't do good things to try and get to heaven - we know that doing good things is not what gets you to heaven as no one is good enough to earn enough brownie points for that! Christians try and do good things because they try and love their neighbour as themselves.

EVERYONE can get to heaven if they choose to accept Gods gift of forgiveness - Jesus.

In the same way that hospitals are for the sick not the well, churches are for the sinners not the perfect people. Jesus talked, stayed with and took supper with the sinners, the criminals, the tax collectors, the adulterers etc, he loathed the Pharises who thought they were perfect examples of holiness. Again this is preached all the time in church.

I am not sure why atheists blame Christianity for what was the cultural norms back in history thousands of years ago eg how women were regarded. Jesus broke many cultural norms by addressing women especially those who were regarded as outside of 'naice' society. He saved a woman from being stoned and talked to the woman at the well who no one else would deign to talk to. Women, who in society at the time the Bible was written had a very lowly place, were often chosen by Jesus to show the way to others.

Maybe people should try going to church themselves and seeing what is actually preached rather than gathering fake ideas and stories from the Internet. Christianity has done so much good in this world and continues to do so today all around us in society.

You get BOTH aethiests and religious people who are awful and hateful towards certain groups but most aethiests and people of faith are good people. God is just and we should leave all judging to him. All I can say is Christianity preaches love and tolerance towards everyone but no one is perfect all the time. They can but try.

Oh ffs.

Christianity has done so much good in this world and continues to do so today all around us in society

Indeed it has. It -along with other religions- have also used faith as a basis for lots of awful things as well.

Theresa May often touts her faith as influencing her politics. I don't see much evidence of the teaching of Jesus in her policies at the moment.

That is why God gave Jesus to take our sins on his shoulders for us, so that ANYONE who chooses to accept His gift of forgiveness can go to heaven if they want to.

Can you just explain how that works again? Even in my teenage Christian phase I could never understand this and no one could ever explain it to me adequately. Why couldn't God just have let anyone go to heaven anyway without the elaborate pantomime? How exactly did Jesus take our sins on his shoulders? I mean, how does it work? Why couldn't God just have absolved our sins? And surely since it's been so patchy in its success it must be time for some new sin-bearing by another of God's progeny?

But anyway there are hundreds of atheist/theist threads on here and that wasn't the point of this rather more interesting thread. The point of this thread was about the role of women, specifically Mary, within the nativity story and whether culturally and socially that seems acceptable today.

only on mumsnet could this actually be a discussion

All I can say is Christianity preaches love and tolerance towards everyone...

Yes, this is the problem! DON'T! I don't want to be preached to. I don't believe. Just be private; preach in church or at home but leave me in peace.

Surely Mary goes and talks to Elizabeth, OK it's about their (male) babies but presumably also about the (sexless) angel and their pregnancies

That would have been one interesting conversation.

That is why God gave Jesus to take our sins on his shoulders for us, so that ANYONE who chooses to accept His gift of forgiveness can go to heaven if they want to.

So basically what you are saying is that being a Christian is about selfish self advancement so that you can live in the land of milk and honey, whilst those that don't accept it are doomed to eternal damnation

Why should God give a shit if I am baptised, or go to church on Sunday, or pray to sooth his ego?

And why is it that the church is more than happy to protect child abusers and wife beaters, as long as they believe in this hokum?

All I can say is Christianity preaches love and tolerance towards everyone...

Well, apart from gays. And abused children. And non believers.

@Namow for the tenth time I wasn't being goady or making a joke. I consider the questions I asked to be serious issues. You can agree or disagree but please do not misunderstand me. Controversial does not equal goady. For Pete's sake you get far longer threads on this forum about how often ppl wash their towels but THIS thread you find silly? Really?