To think the Nativity story is more worrying in terms of consent issues than sleeping beauty etc?

[grobagsforever]

Inspired by the sleeping beauty discussion (but not a TAT). I agree that the message of men kissing women who can't consent is a damaging message for young girls but I'm baffled as to why more people aren't concerned about children being exposed to the nativity.

Mary is impregnated by a male God. In the biblical version she is 'asked' (although how she'd have the courageous to refuse I don't know) but in the children's Christmas version the line is usually something like 'The (male) angel appeared and told Mary she was to have a baby'

Then a mute Mary is transported by donkey at the request of another man, made to give birth in a stable and then visited postpartum by a series of men! All without her explicit consent or consultation.

Am I the only person who thinks this story should not be taught to young children??

Thus always makes me laugh - from the Daily Mash

We should ban everything written before 2000 to prevent subliminal messages of patriarchy and female oppression from being communicated to our children!

Either that or we could get a grip...

She consented by saying stuff like "To me be as it pleaseth God" etc. Had she known she was setting up a group of people some of whom might use her son as an excuse to try to ethnically cleanse people like her, she might have said no thanks!

Mary was the result of the immaculate conception in that she was conceived without sin and therefore pure enough to carry the son of God.

Course she was 😜

We should ban everything written before 2000 to prevent subliminal messages of patriarchy and female oppression from being communicated to our children

Maybe the stories could be discussed with 'that's how it was at the time'?

Mary absolutely gave full consent.

Mary was a very influential woman - very few women mentioned in the New Testament but Mary is up there above the biblical glass ceiling.

Angels are the ultimate gender fluid celestial beings, neither male nor female. You are ascribing earthly characteristics to heavenly creatures.

Mary actually did quite well. Few unmarried pregnant women would have found themselves a husband and ended up feted as the mother of God. God wasn’t mysoginistic - that came from men later in the evolution of the church. God created all men and women equal - and biblically it is often woman who held the power (and let’s not forget Jesus was born a Jew - a matriarchal society).

Good point, OP.

You've also drawn out the humourless like a moth to the flame.

And mrs p, my dd asked how come Mary had a baby if she was a virgin! So children do probe.

The world has proven to me that we are going mad as a race once again.

What on earth does this mean?

Mary was happy enough to go along with it, but she wasn’t given a choice. Gabriel announced it as a fait accompli.

From Matthew

Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been The first stage of marriage (called shiddukin in Hebrew) in Jewish tradition and law, usually lasting for a year before the wedding night; unlike an engagement, it was legally binding and required a divorce to nullify it. The woman remained with her parents during the betrothal year and was referred to as a “wife” even though the marriage was not consummated during this period of time (cf Deut 22:23, 24).betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by [the power of] the Holy Spirit.19

And Joseph her [promised] husband, being a just and righteous man and not wanting to expose her publicly to shame, planned to send her away and divorce her quietly.20

But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, descendant of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the Child who has been Lit begotten.conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.21

She will give birth to a Son, and you shall name Him Jesus (The Lord is salvation), for He will Those who, by personal faith, accept Him as Savior are saved from the penalty of sin and reconciled with the Father.save His people from their sins

So she was pregnant, Joseph was going to leave her but Gabriel persuaded him to stay...

#Awks

Are you telling me that Christmas is literally based on a celestial Jeremy Kyle episode?

Mary couldn't consent as she was under the age of 16.
God is a paedophile.
Glory be.

@Lethaldrizzle How old is your DD?

I specifically said - as did the OP - young children (to me 'young' is probably around 7 and below). I would think it worse that a young child knew what a virgin was tbh. Why oh why are we over-sexualising our kids? Just let them take stories at face value ffs without exploring layers of meaning that breeds suspicion, blame and everyone being frightened to touch one another.

I once read an extremely irritating academic article which for 20 long pages analysed the phrase ‘he came upon her’, concluding that this meant he literally, ahem, came upon her, and this instrinscally meant she didn’t consent for some reason.

The decision to choose Mary was made by an omniscient God who therefore already knew she would give her joyous consent.

And Luke - which is very confusing

26 Now in the sixth month [of Elizabeth’s pregnancy] the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city in Galilee called Nazareth

27 to a virgin The first stage of marriage (called shiddukin in Hebrew) in Jewish tradition and law, usually lasting for a year before the wedding night; unlike an engagement, it was legally binding and required a divorce to nullify it.

The woman remained with her parents during the betrothal year and was referred to as a “wife” even though the marriage was not consummated during this period of time.betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, a descendant of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.28

And coming to her, the angel said, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”29

But she was greatly perplexed at what he said, and kept carefully considering what kind of greeting this was.30 The angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.31 Listen carefully: you will conceive in your womb and give birth to a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.32 He will be great and eminent and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David;33 and He will reign over the house of Jacob (Israel) forever, and of His kingdom there shall be no end.”

34 Mary said to the angel, “How will this be, since I am a virgin and have no intimacy with any man?”

35 Then the angel replied to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you [like a cloud]; for that reason the holy (pure, sinless) Child shall be called the Son of God. 36

And listen, even your relative Elizabeth has also conceived a son in her old age; and she who was called barren is now in her sixth month.

37 For with God nothing [is or ever] shall be impossible.”38 Then Mary said, “Mary’s response was significantly different from Zacharias’ (v 18). Zacharias would not take Gabriel’s word, and instead wanted some kind of miraculous sign as proof.Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; may it be done to me according to your word.” And the angel left her.

Doesn't virgin in this context mean 'unmarried mother'?

And what does Verse 34 mean in the context of

One solution is to buy your DDs this book which sets out to redress the balance of our childhood stories by reclaiming the Celtic ones where women were very much equal. The rot started with the defeat of Boudica... It's really good!
www.amazon.com/Women-Rose-Rooted-Authenticity-Belonging/dp/1910463663?tag=mumsnetforum-21

Hidingbehindwallpaper - you got in there first! mary was the immaculate conception.
And she does consent that's what the annunciation stuffs all about

how do we know Mary was under 16?

I know it's generally assumed she was a teenager but am not sure why - is it because the original is 'young woman' and that is what 'young' meant at that time?

I agree, OP, it's also not a good representation of fatherhood - God is pretty much the ultimate absent father.

Then again, I am the person who was banned from commenting on the Daily Mail for pointing out the similarities between the Easter story and the Walking Dead, so I suppose I would agree.

Angels are sexless.
But if this one had appeared to me fully intact i would have been all over him like a rash 😀

mary was the immaculate conception

Mary was 6 months pregnant before Gabriel appeared and told her about what was going to happen and mentioned God.

How does that work?