To think the Nativity story is more worrying in terms of consent issues than sleeping beauty etc?

[grobagsforever]

Inspired by the sleeping beauty discussion (but not a TAT). I agree that the message of men kissing women who can't consent is a damaging message for young girls but I'm baffled as to why more people aren't concerned about children being exposed to the nativity.

Mary is impregnated by a male God. In the biblical version she is 'asked' (although how she'd have the courageous to refuse I don't know) but in the children's Christmas version the line is usually something like 'The (male) angel appeared and told Mary she was to have a baby'

Then a mute Mary is transported by donkey at the request of another man, made to give birth in a stable and then visited postpartum by a series of men! All without her explicit consent or consultation.

Am I the only person who thinks this story should not be taught to young children??

then it's the only religion people feel safe to mock these days

Maybe Sita didn’t want to be rescued by Rama and Hanuman? Perhaps she actually ran away with King Ravana?

See? People make reference to Christianity because in this country it is the one that we are made by LAW to teach to our children. Therefore everyone in this country understand the story.
Most people don’t know the stories, cultural references or celebrations of Islam or Hinduism.

Show some respect to those that believe though. To say it is a "story" is hugely insulting. I certainly don't think it's a story.

I quite agree that people who would not dream of insulting other religions think Christianity is fair game for any amount of ridicule and mockery.

So Mad,
Why does God look almost exactly like Zeus?
When and why did Jesus's image change from an effeminate boy to the image we are familiar with today?
Which Pope was it that sent a message to the missionaries across Europe that to aid conversion to christianity they need to invent a christian celebration and hold it at the same time as each local celebration?
Why do christians have decorated trees in their homes in winter?
Why is purgatory no longer real but heaven and hell are?
And finally please answer the actual question how many scholars are there that A) belive Jesus was real B) believe Jesus wasn't real? In actual numbers please, not you just naming a couple of people that you agree with.

logicalmum To constantly tell me and my dc's that we are sinners is ruder.

Well, it obviously is a story and using the word 'story' implies no disrespect. The word 'story' is used in English to describe not only fictional tales, but also factual ones - reports in the news that are verified ("the Harvey Weinstein story broke last month") or narrative retellings of historical happenings ("the story of the New York City Ballet.")

People simply disagree as to whether the nativity story is likely to be a true story.

Show some respect to those that believe though. To say it is a "story" is hugely insulting. I certainly don't think it's a story.

It can be a story in the sense of ‘let me tell you the story of how I met your dad.’ ‘I must tell you the story when I found my dog’.......
Some stories are true stories, some are not.

Cross posted with Hiding.

Surely it would be more insulting to pretend I believed it when I didn't? It must be possible to doubt the strict veracity of something without being disrespectful, otherwise those of faith would all have to believe all religions equally.

I certainly don't believe the nativity story as it is told today, most specifically the supernatural parts, but I am prepared to believe that the outline of it is true. It is also possible that the nativity story was retrofitted to Jesus's birth after he became an important prophet with a committed following.

logicalmum My ds1 was bullied by his teacher and she taught the class to bully my ds because he didn't believe, another parent told me. He goes to the only local school, were all the local dc go, we have no choice. If you want to talk about disgusting behaviour christianity wins hands down. I learnt from 3 years old about what christianity really means, how many many christians really behave and make excuses and how congregations are punished from Lambeth, so don't lecture me.

Of course believers can stop me, an atheist, in the street and tell me I’m going to hell and I have to suck it up.

Show some respect to those that believe though

If those who purport to be Christian had shown more respect through history to women, children, homosexuals, divorcees, ethnic minorities, etc, etc then you would have more of a leg to stand on

dont lecture me
Please tell me where i did.
scaredycat I don't believe anyone would have said that to you, no ones ever said that to me.

I don't believe anyone would have said that to you, no ones ever said that to me.

So you don’t believe something that you haven’t independently witnessed.........?

The usual xtian reaction is to judge by saying you're lying or they're not a real xtian rather than discuss the subject and face the reality of the organisation they are a member of, whilst spectacularly missing the irony.

No it's not that, but i believe people exaggerate to make themselves sound believable. How many people have actually called you a sinner and why?

How many people have actually called you a sinner and why

I've been called a sinner. As well as other things. By people who used their faith as the reason for calling me a sinner.

(I think they had a fundamental view of their faith though)

The whole point of the nativity story (as I understood it as a child) is the bravery and unshakable faith of Mary. I did go to a catholic school though so that may have influenced my view of the story.

i believe people exaggerate to make themselves sound believable.

And no one did that when writing a book 2000 years ago?

No one has ever called me a sinner, and at not point did I say they have.
However a person shouting ‘the word of God’ in the street asked me if I believed. I said that I didn’t and he replied that I was going to Hell. Will that do?

'first century Palestine where there was an incredibly robust oral history tradition whereby people handed down their histories word for word and learned them word for word. In addition to this, there were stringent checks in place to ensure that the histories hadn't faltered or changed in any way which detracted from or altered the original retelling. '

So, uniquely, in the history of oral traditions, 1st century Palestinians at no point misheard, forgot, or embellished anything?! What remarkable people.

Yes, indeed, if you want the story you're telling to be passed down, you'd better make sure you start off with an interesting enough story.

Just try reading this thread, how many times we were all born sinners.
The xtian faith is that we are all born sinners since adam and eve, there is a legal requirement for all schools to conduct a daily act of christian worship, many forms of worship contain lines such as forgive me my sins (the lords prayer), street preachers do tend to focus on sin a lot, BBC films songs of praise and more annoyingly thought for the day (refusing humanists a turn). I know what you'll say, but it wasn't said to you personally, then who was it said to? It is all thrown out there for people to hear, we are meant to hear, it affects the people that hear it or are forced to join in, we can not ignore it. I am one of those people, my dc are also those people. We are regularly called sinners by the christian community. If christians want respect they first need to learn what respect is and then show it.

Yes, indeed, if you want the story you're telling to be passed down, you'd better make sure you start off with an interesting enough story.

‘I met this guy years, hung out with him for a few years. Such a nice bloke. Always helping people and talking about how we should be nice to each other and love God. Really great guy.’ That isn’t going to get retold.

scaredcat

Why is purgatory no longerrealbut heaven and hell are?

FYI...Roman Catholics believe in purgatory. Protestants (generally) don't.

Seen some points made along the lines of "you say disgusting things about God but you wouldn't say that about Allah etc etc"

Those that insult the Christian God ARE also insulting the Muslim God at the same time.

Its the same God!