to think people should stop using this part of the forum as a substitute for being in a trade union

[GracielaSabrocita]

It's a common theme on AIBU?: my employer is doing something terrible. Sooner or later someone asks the OP if they are a member of a trade union, which they never are (or else they wouldn't be posting in the first place).

If you can't be bothered to join a union, please don't complain or ask us to sort your problems when your employer treats you like shit.

Plenty of people in those threads advise joining a trade union, so they're not really antithetical to the TU movement - they complement it. Given that TU politics has often been very male-dominated, I think this is something to celebrate rather than to decry.

And yes, everyone should join and support their union. It really is important.

I am an employment lawyer and frequently give advice on MN. I have done for the past 11 years (under various names). A union is not always an employee's best option and there are numerous other ways an employee can get support and information. An employee who is supported by a trade union rep will potentially have easier (and cheaper) access to that information but they should always bear in mind that the TU rep has a day job and cannot possibly also be an employment law expert. It's simply too big an area and changes too frequently. They will have some basic knowledge though and if the case is significant they should be seeking legal advice from their employment lawyers on behalf of the employee.

I have no issue with people asking questions. What frustrates me is people coming onto the threads and giving employment law advice which is frequently incorrect and based on their limited, often second hand knowledge of what they think the law says.

I always say in my posts that I'm an employment lawyer (conscious of the fact that that makes me sound a bit of a knob) in the hope that it helps the OP separate out the incorrect advice from the correct advice.

they should always bear in mind that the TU rep has a day job and cannot possibly also be an employment law expert.

No, but the union does employ people who are, and has good online information these days (mine does, anyway - I assume other unions will work similarly,) so all that is accessible to members, whether or not you have a rep (you'll only have an internal rep if you have a recognised union; the rest of us have people we can email who we have probably never actually met.)

We all have so many more resources available to find out information than we would have had 20 years ago. You still need expertise to sort the wheat from the chaff, but it means you don't have to be reliant on a single source these days.

What I got sick of was sending a client an advice letter regarding an offer and if it was to accept, they ran to their TU rep who told them they had mates who got more than that (totally different circumstances) and to reject. Client calls me back annoyed and mistrusting of me because of advice given by an unqualified rep.

The overstep their authority far too often.

Why can't they ask on Legal Board? If they're not in a Trade Union then what do they expect to achieve by asking for advice in AIBU? Why wouldn't you Google your situation and follow advice given there, which normally includes telling you who to phone? At least Legal Board = good, informed advice and solution.

Sometimes I think these forums are similar to FB (in terms of employment stuff). Where some want to vent and moan but don't actually want a solution. Want all the solutions on paper but won't actually get up to effect anything.

It's different if someone is experiencing workplace bullying say, which is awful and yes they do want a handhold so to speak, and an outlet. But the asking for specific legalities seems odd.

The company I work for doesn't allow any trade unions. I can't go to any union for advice. Go figure.

Problem with unions is probably also one of their strengths - democracy. If a majority vote to go on strike then those who dont lose a days pay and/or get abuse if the employer is still open and they cross the picket line. Never mind if you arent actually a union member.

When unions get all into whose job is whose in factories etc rather than helping out with production bottle necks isnt helpful eaither (e.g. the widget left turner cannot be allowed to do the work of a widget right turner without approval).

Unions can and do serve a representative purpose but in this day and age, advice, information and solidarity is just as useful from mumsnet as it is from a union.

Unions did, after all, not want anything to do with equal pay claims in local authorities. The collective bargaining approach was favored over claims that women were entitled to (and did get via solicitors, not their unions) 5 figure sums. Unions have been failing women for years.

And that says nothing of the high value homes they use members money on to house the various General Secretaries.

GracielaSabrocita
If you can't be bothered to join a union, please don't complain or ask us to sort your problems when your employer treats you like shit.

1. There are no unions in sectors I work in. I've never worked anywhere where there was a union.
2. If I worked in other sectors with unions, I do not wish my fees to contribute to the Labour Party, who for many reasons, including their anti-women "transphobia" nutjob vendetta, is the last party I'd ever want to govern me.

Your post has got to be one of the most stupid I've ever read on MN.

That isn't correct scottish the unions did indeed fund a great many of the equal pay claims brought by local authority employees. Somewhat ironically given that the unions negotiated the discriminatory pay structures in the first place and were the ones who perpetuated the inequalities by pushing for pay protection for the men. They were then sued by their own members for putting the interests of their male members above the interests of their female members and became a little more reluctant to be involved with some aspects of certain types of claim..

I have lived and breathed this litigation for the past 12 years.

When posters say their employer doesn’t allow unions, what kind of employer can they mean? I thought it was a right everyone has? (Happy to be corrected)

Well at the moment they seem to be ignoring the tweets about the Tesco Tuxedo card.

Everyone has a right to join a union. The employer doesn't have to recognis

recognise it unless at least 30% of employees are members. (Would need to check number, wouldn't be surprised if government has changed it in recent years.)

But unions can still offer you support, even if it's not recognised by your employer. They're not just about bulk pay negotiations.

(Stupid phone)

But previous posters are definitely saying they are not allowed to join one, others have already talked about one not being recognised - if they are wrong about this it’s so daft as if they did all join a union the employer might need to actually recognise them.

Uptheduffy

Yes. Stupidly simple, isn’t it.

@Flowerpot1234
If you aren't joining a union because you don't want to have your fees go to Labour, then you will be pleased to know that UK law requires that a) union members are able to opt out of the "political levy" (i.e. the bit that would go to into the union's political fubd if you were paying it) and b) unions have to ask their members to vote by secret ballot every 10 years on whether to even have a political fund.

This has been the case since 1984. In 2016, another act was passed so that now new members have to actually opt in to the political levy - I think it's still in transition though.

Either way, dislike for Labour isn't a reason not to seek the protection of union membership.

YABU

Your legal rights are your legal rights whether or not you’re in a TU

Your legal rights are your legal rights whether or not you’re in a TU.

Yes. Employment legislation is great.

If your employer ignores your legal rights, doesn’t know about them, outright seeks to deny you your legal rights?...

slightlyglittermaned That's all interesting, though is implemented differently across unions. For example the committee members who push for Labour funding in Unision want to change the opt-in/opt-out mechanism to force new joiners to opt-in for a period of time and then pay lower subs.

You write:
dislike for Labour isn't a reason not to seek the protection of union membership.

Well, actually it is a very good reason. The Unions fund Labour. I detest Labour. My worst nightmare would be for this country to be governed by a Labour government. So whilst their funding of Labour isn't the only reason I would not join a union - for example, I find the negative effects of Union membership on aspiration and performance-related pay and motivation in organisations extremely problematic - if all the other reasons were removed, I still wouldn't wish to contribute to, or be associated with, any organisation which supports and funds Labour.

1. Lots of the people who ask questions about workplace problems on MN probably are in a union. Just like people still ask health questions even though they have a GP. People sometimes like to get other regular human beings' opinions about things before they go as far as consultung an expert or a professional. They like to hear other people's similar experiences and how they turned out. It's a pretty normal thing to do.

2. If you are so hacked off by people asking you questions, there's a pretty simple solution to that. Don't open threads about workplace rights questions.

@FlowerPot1234

Why do you detest Labour?

2) If you are so hacked off by people asking you questions, there's a pretty simple solution to that. Don't open threads about workplace rights questions.

Again, OP isn’t hacked off by being asked questions. She is concerned that people are using Internet forums as a substitute for membership of a trade union.

By all means come here for advice and to learn about your rights at work. Then go to your employer, the employer who you’re seeking advice because of, and attempt to enforce them on your own. Make sure you’re wearing your tin hat though.

Arealhumanbeing
@FlowerPot1234
Why do you detest Labour?

I really don't have the time to explain my entire loathing for a political party and its ideologies. It also isn't the topic of this thread!

Not sure about the rest of your post, none of that had anything to do with me.

crikey op who died and made you head prefect of AIBU?

"The company I work for doesn't allow any trade unions. I can't go to any union for advice. Go figure"

That's untrue and potentially unlawful if you are UK based... they may not "recognise" a T.U which is different.

Relevant info/legislation here.
worksmart.org.uk/work-rights/pay-and-contracts/restrictions/can-my-employer-prevent-me-becoming-member-trade-union

I've seen both good and bad re: trades union advice and from so called "employment lawyers" or "HR specialists".
That's the risk of using the internet and taking as gospel the views of a stranger. Some people have nowhere else to go and take the chance and I would never condemn them for that.

If you don't want to give advice don't do it.