to think people should stop using this part of the forum as a substitute for being in a trade union

[GracielaSabrocita]

It's a common theme on AIBU?: my employer is doing something terrible. Sooner or later someone asks the OP if they are a member of a trade union, which they never are (or else they wouldn't be posting in the first place).

If you can't be bothered to join a union, please don't complain or ask us to sort your problems when your employer treats you like shit.

YABTU!! I came out of my union because they were absolutely shite for me! Unions aren’t all they are cracked up to be IMO!

I think that if Union membership is at an all time low they should maybe think about the reasons why. So far many people have posted direct from their experience that:

Union rep was useless
Union gave out incorrect advice
Union rep is a nasty bully
Can’t afford the fees
Don’t agree with their politics
They don’t apply to me - I’m in a non-unionised role

For me personally until they address my first three points then they will not have a penny of my money and indeed many of my colleagues who are in the union are giving up their membership because of those issues.

So rather than shout at us, take on board the valid points raised on this thread and get your house in order rather than have a go at us.

I'm trying to get people to see that work problems and uncertainty about how to deal with them are directly related to the low level of union membership in this country.

And you’re right.

Trade unions can't represent members successfully on collective issues when membership is low.

Trade unions will not change while individuals sit back complaining about them and refusing to join while claiming that they’re ineffective.

If you can afford to use an employment lawyer, go for it. However you should know that your employer doesn’t have to allow them into your disciplinary hearing. You have a legal right to be represented by a union official. Whether the union is recognised or not.

Because employment law favors the interests of the employer it’s in fact quite rare that the employer breaks the law. It usually isn’t about that and the union will be campaigning on issues regarding fairness and dignity at work.

When someone is advised that the issue which they’re seeking advice on is not illegal but they are welcome to join the union along with their colleagues and raise a collective grievance, they pull a face and forever tell the story about how the union ‘was useless’ etc etc etc.

If your union rep or anyone else to do with the union is a nasty bully, (and believe me I know some are) join and vote them out. Elect someone who isn’t a bully. Someone who wants to be constructive and helpful.

I have seen so many people receive good, accurate advice and then twist it because it isn’t advice that they want to take. Or because they can’t believe that what is happening to them is legal and they shoot the messenger.

Trade unions are not perfect and there are things that need to change. For a start let’s have some intelligent women coming forward as reps and activists. Just give it a go, you can always pack it in if it’s not for you.

A lot of employers treat their people terribly but legally and we don’t have any other system with which to engage them. So why not make it work for us?

Of course unions are not perfect. Workplace reps volunteer for the role unpaid and in addition to their regular duties for a start.
However many employment rights that are taken for granted would not have been won without unions and members prepared to fight for them.
I now work for a company where unions are not recognised but I maintain my union membership as is my choice and my right. I am still able to access my union for advice and help (my company actually treats its employees pretty fairly on the whole and appoints support officers to help people of which I am one)
What does annoy me is the following scenarios in jobs where union membership is common:
Union members not joining strike action where there has been a clear mandate to strike
Said members happy to benefit from the actions of other members who did strike
People who moan yet won't join unions
People who are ignorant and won't educate themselves to make informed choices
People who could opt out of the political levy and don't even know that they can
People who don't realise that apathy has caused the gradual erosion of union empowerment and really believe what they read in the tabloid press

Unions benefit when members actually attend meetings, vote and keep themselves informed about what's going on.

Shenanagins

A trade union isn't a service you buy. Unions are just that unions of people who join together to help each other. Demanding unions address your issues before they get your money is missing the point spectacularly.

You join, you become a rep, you help people, you vote for the policies you agree with. YOU join with others to help others.

You want to be serviced but put nothing in. You want to pay and demand service but do nothing.

Trade unionism is about working together to help each other. Acting like a spoilt child demanding service while putting nothing back reflects your attitude towards society. Why not ask yourself what you could do to help people?

People who are ignorant and won't educate themselves to make informed choices.

This too.

An uncomfortable truth for many but absolutely true.

My point was that trade unions should listen to what people are saying about why they don’t want to join rather than complain about falling numbers.

However , it appears that from the response, unions expect us to sort out their issues and pay for the privilege.

Shenanagins

However , it appears that from the response, unions expect us to sort out their issues and pay for the privilege

Yet again you miss the point spectacularly. It is not 'them' and 'us' it is about 'we'. You join the unions and become a member. You can then vote and go to meetings and stand for election. Unions listen by having elections and meetings but you have to attend and speak up and involve yourself. You have to turn up to get your voice heard. Get off your backside, stop being a keyboard warrior, life is happening and all you can do is moan.

You want to sit around criticising the work of others while doing nothing yourself. How can unions listen if you don't attend and vote.

Shenanagins

Trade unions are listening to the reasons that people don’t want to join. Then they put a great deal of thought into how to educate and raise awareness (among potential members) of how we work together to put things right.

You would understand if you wanted to. Collectivism isn’t a hard concept to grasp. You’re not listening.

Just recently, I sat in a meeting where a union rep cost a worker £40k due to awful advice. We even took a break so he (union rep) could take advice, but he refused.

I recently sat in a meeting where management attempted to unfairly dismiss someone.

As we keep repeating individuals might make mistakes or be total imbeciles but in the movement is strength. If you are so brilliant join it and make us stronger. Or you can hang around criticising others.

Apologies if anyone has said this you could say that about anything.

Asking advice on a relationship? Can you not afford a counsellor?

Advice on divorce? How silly to get divorced when you can’t afford a solicitor.

If you don’t want to advice don’t read the thread.

Tinkerbec

An Internet discussion forum can’t represent you at work or raise issues with your employer. Can’t pay for your legal team and cover your tribunal fees either.

OP said that people shouldn’t use this forum as a substitute for trade union membership. And they shouldn’t, because it is no substitute. She didn’t attempt to shut down discussion or do any of the ridiculous things she has been acused of.

So you come on here, ask advice and find out that your employer is in the wrong, is acting unfairly or has broken the law.

What’s your next move? Whatever it is good luck making it on your own.

Just recently, I sat in a meeting where a union rep cost a worker £40k due to awful advice. We even took a break so he (union rep) could take advice, but he refused.

The member should raise a complaint and the union should make sure the rep is fit to represent through training and education.

I do when I read threads were teachers aren’t union members. I do think that is very stupid of them.
It is of course annoying if your union doesn’t perform the way you want it too or if your rep is poor - the obvious way to make progress with this is to get more involved with the union and be part of the change.

Tinkerbec you don’t just go to union for advice you go for representation. The analogy to a marriage counsellor etc doesn’t work. It’s more like someone not having a vaccination and then coming on saying they worry they have caught that illness.

Arealhumanbeing

Same as a forum can’t support you in a FDR of a child contact hearing.

I agree good luck making it on your own but unfortunately some people have no choice.

I mean OP when someone starts a 'My work is shit' thread, as you quite rightly stated any newspaper could pick it up and identifying factors mean the person saying 'My work is shit' land themselves further in it.

There was a post this week about something very specific with identifying factors.

Do you get me now?

The TUC have a link on their website which tells you what the best Union is to join for your industry. As others have said even if the union isn't recognized for collective bargaining you are still entitled to bring a rep in to any individual meetings that you have if there is a risk of you being sacked.
I really agree that the only way the unions will be able to really protect and improve workers rights is if more people join a union and get involved with it, it shouldn't be like an insurance policy, the strength in a union is in the members taking an active role, the more members who do this the better the outcomes will be.

Same as a forum can’t support you in a FDR of a child contact hearing.

I agree good luck making it on your own but unfortunately some people have no choice.

Don’t understand the relevance of your first point.

How so? What do you mean, ‘some people have no choice’?

I mean OP when someone starts a 'My work is shit' thread, as you quite rightly stated any newspaper could pick it up and identifying factors mean the person saying 'My work is shit' land themselves further in it.

There was a post this week about something very specific with identifying factors.

Do you get me now?

No. I don’t get you. What do you mean?

I agree OP, people should stop using this part of the forums for employment advice.

They should use the "Employment" section of Talk.

Except no-one would read it 'cos people only use Mumsnet to fight nowadays rather than discussing things like adults - you can tell this by looking at some of the twattishly infantile replies to you for daring to suggest that the Fight Club might not be the best place to ask for potentially life changing advice given that most of the denizens are punch drunk & aggressive....

YAB100%U!

Just recently, I sat in a meeting where a union rep cost a worker £40k due to awful advice. We even took a break so he (union rep) could take advice, but he refused.

Yes I've seen this so often.

As a solicitor who many years ago worked for a trade union panel firm, it happened over and over again.

Reasonable offer on the table. We advise to accept. Client speaks to unqualified and often uneducated TU rep with no legal knowledge at all and tells them not to accept it and go for more.

It drove me crazy. They are mouth and no knowledge behind and they dont know what they are doing and have no right giving legal advice as to whether an offer is acceptable or not.

But because the client always wants more they listen to the rep and get angry at the lawyer who actually is qualified to advise.

NamasteNiki

Clearly you see this, but my union advises we recommend that an offer is sent to the union's own solicitors who are experts in employment law.