to think people should stop using this part of the forum as a substitute for being in a trade union

[GracielaSabrocita]

It's a common theme on AIBU?: my employer is doing something terrible. Sooner or later someone asks the OP if they are a member of a trade union, which they never are (or else they wouldn't be posting in the first place).

If you can't be bothered to join a union, please don't complain or ask us to sort your problems when your employer treats you like shit.

Well, why don't people stop treating AIBU as a relationship counselling service and actually go to see a real relationship counsellor then?

KatherinaMinola Mmm, try that with HM Forces and you won't get far. No unions recognised or allowed.

Oh yes, the military is the exception - but most people aren't in the military.

I'm thinking of the retail workers, catering workers, call centre staff etc who think they aren't allowed to join a union. Just posting some information for them.

Are you kidding?! I have yet to see the unions in my profession do anything remotely useful considering the bloody money they are paid! The advice people give on here is sometimes a million times better quality than a union because there is a wealth of experience on this board.

As a TU rep, I do see where OP is coming from. But then I also have been known to help non members if I feel they have a case, with some informal advice. I wouldn't necessarily accompany them to meetings if they didn't join the union - mainly because there are more members needing support than reps available where I work so I would prioritise those who have been paying their subs - but a friendly steer over a cup of tea is often helpful.

Non members benefit from collective bargaining and good reps try to hold out for the best deal for the most people, so we wouldn't necessarily shaft higher paid workers in favour of low paid ones if the trade off didn't benefit the majority of members. I am president of my union in my sector, and work closely with the other unions recognised in my workplace and HE, we make a good team. I have seen some terrible relationships in the past though with different personalities, so it all depends on the people involved.

I don't think the trade union side where I am can be accused of being too close to management. However I do think it's beneficial to have good working relationships where you can build trust, because I find you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

I run an advice agency; and still advice clients

1. to join a trade union (even if it just means someone to accompany you to a grievance or disciplinary meeting)
2. check if you have legal expenses insurance on your house insurance
3. use any other tools for seeking advice (like newspapers, online etc but only if you cross check the accuracy with other sources) because often the discussion can elicit legal and practical advice which others dont think of.

Also worth ringing ACAS though they are no use for advice -just information You can be in a trade union even if an employer does not recognise them. They will fund Employment Tribunal representation by one of their funded solicitors firms which is a very useful benefit

Katherina The military are still the public sector, and so should be considered. Typical shrug off comment when it comes to HM Forces and their lack of representation; they needn't be worried about.

Surely such threads are more interesting than "AIBU to love Jaeger/ hate Cadbury's" threads.

Where's OPs clarification post? ooops, she must have fucked off up her own arse. Her arse being a Union member or it would have posted on here by now complaining about it.

Dear OP,
For your information we live in a free country, we can choose to join a union if we wish, we can choose to not join a union. We have free will. You also have free will not to read employment posts
Someone isn't in a union can of course most certainly ask for advice on MN. Or anywhere else they wish to.
Why does that annoy you so much?????

As an aside.... not every issue posted about in employment requires union intervention. And also not all union reps or intervention is useful.

OP I honestly find your post bloody ridiculous

The military are still the public sector, and so should be considered. Typical shrug off comment when it comes to HM Forces and their lack of representation; they needn't be worried about.

I'm not sure why the aggression, scary. I'm not the OP. I posted about people being able to join unions even when their workplace isn't unionized because I thought this might be helpful information for PP or others who didn't know that.

The military is an exception. Although I understand the exception (they don't want a coup or a strike), I do agree with you - many parts of the military could be unionized and the limits of unionization could be agreed (in the same way as happens in the FCO and other key govt depts, for example). People in the military should have access to as much employment representation as is compatible with operations.

I am pro-unions whatever sector people work in - private, public, voluntary/community.

Yabu. Often union reps are useless and union membership isn't worth the money and unions are not accessible to many workers. In contrast, women on here are often given good advice, including from experts in employment law, for free. It's one of the great things about the site. You get a range of input from people of different backgrounds.

You're absolutely right OP! I'm shocked by how many people don't help themselves by joining a union. Anyone can join the general workers' unions and even without recognition they can still help.
No surprise it's the workers who don't join a union who find themselves needing help from an Internet forum.

What's the point in joining a union if your employer don't recognise it? I've been in loads of disiplinaries where the person in question brings a union rep as their friend and it makes no difference whatsoever. I kicked one out once, she was crazy

Try paying union fees off a minimum wage. Unfortunately that money keeps the roof over my head.

But a lot of trade unions are not suitable for a lot of people for a lot of reasons. Some people don't want to join be aye they don't want to get caught up in the politics. Others cannot afford the fee. Others don't even have a union to join in the first place. Just because you are not a unionist doesn't mean that you don't deserve fair treatment from their employer. You and your stupid ideas can go back to the 60s where they belong.

I am in my union, but I recognise their limitations - often a very dated male-centric view of the workplace. Remember the dinner ladies who had to take their own union to court because it had shafted them to protect the 'working man'?

Thanks for all the replies. Firstly:

Where's OPs clarification post? ooops, she must have fucked off up her own arse. Her arse being a Union member or it would have posted on here by now complaining about it.

There's no need to be so fucking rude. I had work commitments last night meaning it's only now I can respond - why does that give you the right to come out with the above?

Re. the other responses: yes I accept that my OP does overstate the case a bit, and obviously all workers, union members or not, have and should have rights. Yes I accept that asking for employment advice online has plenty of advantages. (Although apparently a lot of the advice on here is actually completely bogus.) Yes I accept that unions are fallible and do not always do their best for their members.

However most of you seem to be in denial about my main point. According to www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/01/union-membership-has-plunged-to-an-all-time-low-says-ons, the UK now has only 6.2 million union members. If the majority of workers joined a union then workers would be better treated (and possibly better paid). There are plenty of threads on here illustrating just how badly workers are treated nowadays, yet there appears to be no understanding that the posters' lack of union membership has any relation to this.

Imagine I start a thread about being run over by a motorist. Eventually someone asks me if I look both ways before crossing the road and I admit that it's not something I can allocate time and energy for. The motorist shouldn't have run me over, but still . . .

I am in my union, but I recognise their limitations - often a very dated male-centric view of the workplace.

Unfortunately that can happen. If you have time to get involved yourself then you can help to change that.

The being run other analogy makes no sense at all

Totally agree with posters about unreliability of TU intervention.

A good friend was victim of a really clear case of constructive dismissal. She had all the proof available but Union rep said although she was clearly in the right they would advise against pursuing it. She didint even say anything in the meeting with employer to defend my friend despite the fact that she had insisted on doing the talking.

Plus, people bringing up their situations here may help others realise that they are being mistreated and will fight their own corners.

Sharing our experiences and talking about our situations is what makes us strong.

iamyourequal

Often union reps are useless and union membership isn't worth the money

Wow thanks for that! Most work place reps volunteer and give up their own time. Are we not working hard enough in our own time for you? In some workplaces they are putting themselves on the line by visibly arguing with management. Are we not taking enough risks for you?

Being a TU rep can be hard work and emotionally draining. Obviously if you are supporting a member through disciplinary or competency proceedings it is much worse for them but I have gone home and cried a few times.

Obviously some reps are better than others but sweeping statements like the one above are really entitled and rude. You put yourself out there then. You help people. You give up your own time. Stop criticising and do something.

Wow OP, you are utterly clueless.

A lot of people ask for help on here because they are at the end of their tether and have nowhere else to turn.

Many employers - small ones in particular - don't have the ubiquitous HR department to refer things to, and huge numbers of people don't belong to a union, simply because there isn't one for them to join. In small businesses there's frequently nobody to report things to. And often, the manager or owner is the one you are having the issue with, so you can hardly complain to them, can you.

That's why people come on here.

Basically, a union is the only way to fairly spread the cost of having your own HR/legal advice/pay negotiators. Yes, some union reps are crap, and so are some HR teams to be honest.

But having worked in an unionised workplace vs one that wasn't, it really was night and day - the union was very strong, and had some bloody clever people involved. They couldn't stop the tide but they could make it a lot easier for people and often were more diligent than the senior/middle managers they dealt with.

They paid for training in employment law and negotiation skills for their reps - again, a local rep for a small office who wasn't that bothered might not take it up, but they did have regional reps & offices to fall back on for advice. When a big redundancy programme was proposed, they swung into immediate action investigating proposals in detail and negotiating some changes - which made the redundancy deal much better, and also changed how it was rolled out in a way that left a more functional organisation than the ignorant middle managers (who generally had no clue what was important in the work) would have achieved.

In the other place, the redundancy and plans were a done deal from the start. They paid just as much lip service to "consultation" as they legally needed to - they got "employee reps" - untrained volunteers in to sit in meetings and rubber stamp things. Some of the reps tried really hard to put together proposals for changes that would save jobs and actually keep stuff working - but without the broader support structure of a union they got nowhere. Some very damaging and ultimately costly changes were railroaded through.