Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think suspending the teacher was extreme?

523 replies

LouBlue1507 · 14/11/2017 09:25

A maths teacher has been suspended, probably going to be sacked for accidently calling a trans child a girl whilst referring 'well done girls' to a small group of girls. He apologised for his mistake, but weeks later the parents complained.

I don't think he's helped himself by going to the press and 'This Morning' but for a class of pupils to lose a good teacher over this?

It's obvious that the majority of teachers need training on transgender, gender fluid etc. It's not fair that they are thrown in the deep end with no training what so ever. I bet most don't even know what half of it even means!

OP posts:
BoneyBackJefferson · 14/11/2017 22:01

Julie8008

I'm not saying that at all, I am saying lets not make up bullshit terms to try and justify a point of view.

Julie8008 · 14/11/2017 22:17

A girl is female and a boy is male

And lets keep banging that into children's heads, even if it kills them.
Maybe if we shock them enough we could even cure them.

waterwagtail · 14/11/2017 22:19

thefederalist.com/2017/02/28/blame-parents-share-sudden-emergence-trans-kids/
Interesting article.

FloraFox · 14/11/2017 22:24

A girl is female and a boy is male

And lets keep banging that into children's heads, even if it kills them.

That's not what is killing them.

Kids are confused about their sex because people tell them "girls like / are like X" and "boys like / are like Y". If they get this message from birth, no wonder it is confusing when they start to realise "I am a girl but I like / am like Y".

It's not helping kids to tell them "well if you like / are like Y, you are a boy, regardless of your sex, oh and you can take medication for the rest of your life, become infertile and lose sexual function so that you might feel it's okay to like / be like Y".

You think you are being kind. You are not.

Datun · 14/11/2017 22:49

And lets keep banging that into children's heads, even if it kills them.

Where are these children who have been killed by not pretending you can change sex?

Seriously. No one wants to be responsible for a child’s death. But where is this list?

ReanimatedSGB · 14/11/2017 22:49

Yes, the problem seems to be that this teacher was subtly and persistently bullying this child.
Just imagine, those of you who find it difficult to have any kind of rational argument if someone mentions trans issues, that a schoolchild adopted a new religious belief and, with that belief, a new name. (This isn't unheard of). Would you think it was OK for a teacher to repeatedly address the child by the former name on the grounds that the religion was silly? Even if the religion is silly (actually, all religions are silly, but people have a right to take them up and/or practice them as long as they're not bothering anyone else) it is not the teacher's job to subtly needle the child by ostenatitously using the wrong name and/or continually drawing attention to the name change.
Is it?

BoneyBackJefferson · 14/11/2017 22:55

ReanimatedSGB
Yes, the problem seems to be that this teacher was subtly and persistently bullying this child.

Yet he was found not to be.

and as far as I can see, he was referring to the child by their chosen name and not referring to them as either he or she but by the term "they" when speaking to other people and the parents.

But there may be other sources that say differently.

ReanimatedSGB · 14/11/2017 23:01

Also, the idea of 'non-binary', certainly for young people, strikes me as a relatively good one. As far as I can tell, that's an option that isn't a fast track to drugs and surgery, and maybe gives unhappy kids breathing space and 'community' support while they work out who they are and what they want. And if that's a way of rebelling against rigid gender roles, then more power to it.

Julie8008 · 14/11/2017 23:02

I note posters are all avoiding the fact that the school was specifically championing LGBTQ rights. Why was a such a bigoted man allowed on staff, or did he hide that in his application?

ReanimatedSGB · 14/11/2017 23:03

BBJ I'm not sure any actual conclusions have been announced yet - but the fact that the teacher is being defended by an organisation with a track record of peddling the 'Christians are being persecuted by being asked to stop discriminating against other people' line makes it... maybe a bit more likely that he's a prick.

Datun · 14/11/2017 23:16

There are many people on here who are exercising their right to condemn Christianity and how it might affect this man’s behaviour.

Whilst apparently totally happy to forego any rights that they might have to criticise another, equally belief based, ideology.

TheFallenMadonna · 14/11/2017 23:17

There aren't any questions about "bigotry" on a teacher's application form as I recall...

TheFallenMadonna · 14/11/2017 23:23

I think if your protests about transgender issues are focused on one vulnerable child, you should probably reconsider your approach.

I am gender critical. I also have a religious faith. I manage to hold both of these viewpoints/beliefs while still treating vulnerable children with respect.

Hellomaryimback · 14/11/2017 23:37

My child isn't confused by her sex. She knows she is girl/female She likes my little pony and her no1 xmas present on her list is a light up car track. Neither myself or her dad forced her down a pink path of girlieness

Only a very very very small minority are confused. I think there are a lot of external factors keep them confused too.

I dread this coming to my dc school because they will not be forced to lie and change their language for the sake of a tiny majority. Sorry

Emperors new clothes effect

FloraFox · 14/11/2017 23:51

it is not the teacher's job to subtly needle the child by ostenatitously using the wrong name and/or continually drawing attention to the name change.

This is not what was happening according to the reports.

Many people seem to be starting by trying to determine the teacher's motivations, deciding they do not agree with them and concluding that the teacher is in the wrong regardless of what he actually did.

The reports I've seen say that he used the child's preferred name, avoided using pronouns at all but used the child's preferred name instead and called the child and another child "girls" which he claims was an accident. The other stuff about running a bible club or talking about religion during maths is completely irrelevant.

I don't think anyone is suggesting he should ignore the child's preferred name. I don't think he should be required to use the pronouns that incorrectly suggest the girl is a boy, regardless of his motivation. He could use gender neutral terms for groups of learners but there needs to be some recognition that this is a very new requirement that has not been discussed or agreed by a consensus in the community and will not come naturally to many people.

The fear-mongering around suicide by children if their desire to be treated as a member of the opposite sex by the entire rest of the world is just that. Fear-mongering and manipulation often egged on by complete strangers on the internet or transactivist lobbyists with a MASSIVE agenda.

DancingOnParsnips · 15/11/2017 00:10

He came across as an arse when I saw him. I think he deserves what he gets. He was deliberately flouting policy.

BatShite · 15/11/2017 02:11

When did you all know you were who you are? did all you CIS females all know you were female from an early age? they why can't trans kids know they are trans from an early age?

Well clearly 'trans kids' do not 'know' they are trans from an early age. Given 80-95% of children with 'gender dysphoria' grow out of it, if they are left alone to develop properly rather 'socially transitioned' then shoved onto blockers. Once on blockers, its a kind of self fulfilling prophecy though as only 3% or less change their minds once pumped full of chemoterapy drugs off label that stop brain development. Of these 80-95% of kids who would otherwise grow out of gender confusion, most of them will simply turn out to be gay. You are supporting gay eugenics here.

And very very few females on this board are 'cis' as I doubt many (if any) of us are walking stereotypes Confused Its rather insulting to say we are tbh.

And false suicide stats don't help anyone.

All that said, it does seem like this teacher was in the wrong and preaching his relgion instead of teaching maths.

But this continual accusation of transphobia on mumsnet, coupled with support for gay eugenics and medicalizing children for liking the 'wrong' toys or clothes, 'misgendering' users on here whilst maintaining that misgendering is worse than actual violence, and flinging around of suicide statistics that are dubious at best and total lies at worst, is tiring.

TheStoic · 15/11/2017 02:18

The fear-mongering around suicide by children if their desire to be treated as a member of the opposite sex by the entire rest of the world is just that.

Wow. I've heard some cunty things in my time, but this is right up there.

Italiangreyhound · 15/11/2017 02:37

I feel pretty sorry for teachers today. I can't imagine ever wanting to put myself in the firing line that some of them do.

The whole transgender ideology is being swallowed lock, stock and barrel by schools and everyone seems to be required to agree with it.

I do wonder how things would work if a child who was white wanted to be identified as another race, would the school be required to agree to it.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/man-transracial-white-florida-filipino-rachel-dolezal-philippines-ja-du-adam-a8053731.html

Italiangreyhound · 15/11/2017 02:55

There definitely are some children who are trans, I understand that, personally, I believe that. But I also think that forcing everyone to buy into this ideology is wrong.

In the clip I saw of this Philip Scofeild talked about 'born in the wrong body', something there is no medical evidence for and not all trans people buy into. So it is a very complex issue and one where it seems easy to demonize people.

DixieFlatline · 15/11/2017 03:08

When did you all know you were who you are? did all you CIS females all know you were female from an early age? they why can't trans kids know they are trans from an early age?

I'm not cis, thanks.

And I was aware I was female from an early age because I was informed of the fact. To me, it meant nothing in terms of interests etc., all it meant was I had a vagina and would grow up to be a woman, like my mother, and not a man, like my father.

I hated dolls. I loved Polly Pocket and Puppy in my Pocket etc. because I liked miniature things. Which is also why I loved Micro Machines and toy cars in general, and I also loved educational games and Lego. I grew up loving cycling, building things, playing computer games, riding horses. I was intensely aware of pressures put on me from pre-teen onwards to like 'girly' stuff, start playing with make-up, be attractive to and liked by boys, wear skirts. I felt a deep sense of wrongness about all of this.

I wondered whether it was me, whether I should have been a boy, whether I was a lesbian, whether there was just something wrong with me. I also somewhere, deep down, recognised the unfairness of it all. Thankfully I grew up long enough ago that I was allowed to get through the teen years and gradually realise where these pressures come from and grow into myself and accept myself. Had I been growing up now I'm 100% sure I'd be identifying as a boy. And miserable regardless, because I am a normal woman who is obviously not a fucking man just because I was made to feel abnormal and oppressed by gender stereotypes and patriarchal pressures to objectify and sexualise myself for the male gaze.

I feel desperately sorry for all girls (and boys) going through similar struggles now. The suggestion that they might have been born in the wrong body is such a cruel lie to tell to impressionable people.

DixieFlatline · 15/11/2017 03:12

I watched the This Morning clip earlier by the way, and thought Schofield was an utter dick. He and Holly didn't seem to be able to argue against 'there are girls and boys and I don't believe you can change sex' with what seemed to amount to 'you are mean if you won't agree', so they randomly switched to the topic of homosexuality to get something with which to paint those people as evil. They may be out of touch when it comes to homosexuality, and I strongly disagree with their view, but they are entitled to think whatever they like, and it certainly has absolutely fucking nothing to do with their argument re. changing sex.

Italiangreyhound · 15/11/2017 03:16

DixieFlatline the women, I forget her name, is well known as someone who campaigns against rights for gay people, e.g. against same sex marriage. I am a Christian and I don't agree with her at all. But I think Philip bringing that topic up was wrong and unfair and his comments were very unhelpful in general.

CoyoteCafe · 15/11/2017 03:34

*I feel pretty sorry for teachers today. I can't imagine ever wanting to put myself in the firing line that some of them do.

The whole transgender ideology is being swallowed lock, stock and barrel by schools and everyone seems to be required to agree with it*

former teacher here. This time last year I was teaching adolescents with emotional and behavior disorders. Being KIND to my students was never the problem. The administration, the large case load, the legal ramifications of working with kids with serious mental health issues all got to me and I took a break.

But I loved the kids. Even the ones who are tremendously different from mainstream society, questioning how they fight into the culture.

I'm not sure why there are suddenly so many people identifying as transgender. I wonder if things will swing back. None the less, every day I did my best to be KIND to the students that were in front of me. It's not too much to ask of any teacher.

I never felt like I was being asked to agree with anything. I did want to help my students learn basic academic skills, see their own strengths, and look forward to their futures. To do that, I needed to connect with them. Again, just kindness, and treating them like actual human beings who are worthy of respect and dignity.

DixieFlatline · 15/11/2017 04:00

DixieFlatline the women, I forget her name, is well known as someone who campaigns against rights for gay people, e.g. against same sex marriage. I am a Christian and I don't agree with her at all. But I think Philip bringing that topic up was wrong and unfair and his comments were very unhelpful in general.

Oh, I've never seen her before! And of course, I would stand firmly against her efforts to reduce LGB people's access to marriage. She seemed rather... far gone, if I can put it like that, given the way she tried to preach when she would otherwise quite likely have come across as very convincing if she'd tried to keep the argument on track instead of allowing herself to be steered onto the issue of homosexuality.

But again, it really had no bearing on the pronoun issue and was an incredibly pathetic and cheap shot by Schofield. It made me feel more sorry for the teacher. I honestly don't even care if his story is full of spin and the issue is really about him actively targeting a child in his class - in the context of the the issue as it was framed and discussed on the clip I saw, Schofield was outrageous - either utterly uninformed and too arrogant to care, or far too keen to press doublethink and newspeak on others in front of an audience.