AIBU to feel annoyed that male colleague is paid £5k more than me?

[Octonautstotherescue]

We do the same job although I’m more qualified. I found out his pay details by accident yesterday. Couldn’t believe it and feel like a mug now. This isn’t right or legal is it?

[hotbutteredcrumpetsandtea]

In the UK Employers cannot pay a man more than a woman for doing the same job under the Equality Act 2010

Of course they can, as long as their sex is not the reason they are doing so.

People can and are paid different amounts for the same job all the time. Another woman could easily be paid less or more than the OP for the same job. What would she blame it on then?

[UnicornInTraining]

YANBU. There are some great Ted Talks out there about negotiating your salary, watch them and ask for a raise.

FWIW in my first job I discovered six months in that I was paid about 5k less than the others working at my level. All because I had the wrong idea about how much my work was worth. I went to my boss, who told me he was very surprised and very happy to accept my initial offer because he thought I would ask for 10k more. And was willing to pay it! Lesson learned, I make sure I have all the facts and negotiate my salary now.

[Walkingdead11]

hotbutteredcrumpetsandtea

They say it isnt about sex but in actual fact it usually is. It's called sexism, the notion that men are worth more than women and it is rampant in our society. Ignoring this is simply unbelievable!

[hotbutteredcrumpetsandtea]

Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. It's stupid to assume that its sexism though, and it undermines actual sexism when it isn't.

For all you know there is a perfectly good reason the man is paid more that has nothing to do with his genitals.

[treaclesoda]

Where many people go wrong is by not continuously testing the market when they in a job. If you do that, and you can't get more elsewhere, you are not underpaid. If you can, why haven't you gone to the other job?

Because we're told from the day and hour we enter the workplace that job hopping makes you look unreliable and incompetent?

I've worked for 7 employers in 21 years, because I have always been on the lookout for a better job. It doesn't go down well with potential employers, even when I've pointed out that four of those were temporary contracts which left me with no real choice but to move as I was trying to ensure that I actually had an income of some sort.

[1Mother20152015]

Ask for more and get a job offer for more and tell your current employers. iti s not easy and plenty of women are not good at this nor at moving cities with a trailing spouse husband to get better jobs etc but it has to be done if we are ever to get changes in this area. It is very risky changing jobs and going out of your comfort zone and insisting on more pay - it's nasty and difficult and most of us don't like it but women are just going to have to do it a lot more often and if that means their husbands having to up sticks and leaving their job behind because the woman has found a better job in another city the husbands are just going to have to put up with it.

[1DAD2KIDS]

murasaki That is a surprise I would like to read up on that. I was always under the impression that bin collectors where paid a bit more based on the unsociable working hours (stupid o'clock starts), unpleasantness and the fact its the 6th most dangerous job in the UK? Not to say that kitchen work is without hazard or the occasional unpleasantness (to be fair never done either job). Be interesting to see the grounds they put forward to say both jobs that seem very different are worthy of the same pay. I heard there is an ongoing battle with ASDA predominately female check out clerks claiming sexism because the predominantly male warehouse operatives get paid more. I have never worked in retail but likewise wise I would have thought they are different jobs with different hazards and working conditions?

Its a shame we are so defined by gender roles, would love to see more female refuse collectors, sewer technicians and builders. Women are just as capable of doing the most hazardous, dangerous and dirtiest jobs as men. We always ask why are there not more women CEOs etc, but little do people seem to say why not more women refuse collectors? But by not pushing in these jobs women are missing out. Often the only way to make a good buck without education/qualifications is to move into jobs that pay better on there unpleasantness and/or hazards hard manual jobs. Not all women are from the sort of privileged background or intelligence that they could hope for such lofty jobs in say management. And the genderisation of certain jobs has a big impact on the pay gap. But maybe we could also do more to open opportunities for women to get stuck into these hazardous, unpleasant, manual jobs to help raise the wage possibilities of other women?

[BIWI]

ASDA lost that battle, by the way, and are having to pay out to all the female employees.

[1DAD2KIDS]

Ah last time I herd it was at appeal. Looks like ASDA lost the appeal. Clearly the jobs are more similar than I would have imagined.

[1DAD2KIDS]

Anyway surely they would have had to pay out all check out employees not just the female ones?

[Rufustherenegadereindeer1]

But maybe we could also do more to open opportunities for women to get stuck into these hazardous, unpleasant, manual jobs to help raise the wage possibilities of other women?

Im probably reading this wrong...but it sounds like a snide dig

Its not though is it,..you wouldn't do that would you

[MrsTerryPratchett]

OP not coming back after all the lovely advice 'she' has been given?

[Atenco]

Does it matter if it is a troll, frankly? This is an interesting and shocking thread. I have really had my eyes opened

[Atenco]

I think it's simply that many people don't like to call 'sexism' with little or no evidence. It devalues the term

My evidence for sexism in matters of pay is historical and present in the UK.

None of us know the details of this particular case, but about 80% of the people on here are automatically assuming that the man has some unknown superiority to the woman where he merits his higher pay.

[kinkajoukid]

I am confused... the link to the Equality and Human Rights Commission gives information that men and women should have "equal pay for equal work" regardless of several factors including "length of service",

So to me this means that if ManA is paid £10 an hour for filling 20 boxes an hour and WomanB is paid £9 an hour for filling 20 boxes an hour, then WomanB should also be paid £10 an hour regardless of whether the man has been there 5 years longer than her. Her output and responsibilities are exactly the same as his. His length of service does not mean he does more work or better work.

So the key being that they both do they same job to the same standard so that makes it equal work. if ManA had extra responsibilties because of his extra experience then he would be allowed to be paid extra.

The problem with paying more for simply for more experience or length of service but without requiring extra output or duties, is that this frequently puts women at a disadvantage because it is usually women that take time out of work to care for children or elderly relatives. it is a structural/ societal issue. Hence the idea that if the work (and output) is the same, then the work is equal and the pay should be equal.

Am I completely wrong or is it just the majority of posters on this thread have it wrong!!! ;)

[Acadia]

You need to include the paragraph where you state what happened when you asked for a pay rise. You don't just get given one.

And two, you need to include the bit where you justify that you do just as good a job, or more, and have gone above and beyond and thus deserve the pay rise.

They won't just randomly go around paying men more, but they will give pay rises when a staff member asks and CAN JUSTIFY it.

So that's your next step.

They're not going to come over and say "Well, Bob just asked for £5000 more and showed us evidence of the extra project he took on, duties he did and input he gave. So congrats, you get £5k too."

[TittyGolightly]

In the UK Employers cannot pay a man more than a woman for doing the same job under the Equality Act 2010.

Yes they can.

[hotbutteredcrumpetsandtea]

Am I completely wrong or is it just the majority of posters on this thread have it wrong!!!

Yes you have it wrong. Because filling boxes is not a good example. Yes, anyone filling the same number of boxes should be paid the same. But what about jobs where length of service, experience etc makes you better at your job? How do you quantify then if they are doing the exact same job?

[AppleKatie]

OP not coming back after all the lovely advice 'she' has been given?

Would you come back? If you felt you were a victim of sexism and 80% of a long running thread told you it must be your fault and you probably are worth less than him?

Then a few more pile on to call you a troll?

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't come back either tbh.

[kinkajoukid]

hotbuttered well wouldn't that come down to output then or some other a measurable indicator eg quality of work taken on/ allocated eg the more experienced/ longer served taking the more complex cases or getting through more cases. In that case, they would not be doing the same job.

If there is a distinction in responsibility this is usually indicated by something like senior XYZ and would include some extra responsibility like allocating the work or a supervisory aspect and so is measurably a different and not equal job.

But otherwise, if the experience gives no advantage, and there is no differentiation in workload be it in output or difficulty and the job title is the same, wouldn't this be two people doing equal jobs and therefore, shouldn't the pay be the same?

[kinkajoukid]

And equal work is more than just doing the exact same job and same work. it applies to comparable jobs too...

[https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/equal-pay-equal-work-matter-law] says:

"The comparator may be doing the same job as the woman, or he may be doing a different job. She can claim equal pay for equal work with a comparator doing work that is:
*like work - this is where the works involves similar tasks which require similar skills, and any differences in the work are not of practical importance
*work rated as equivalent - this is where the work has been rated under a fair job evaluation scheme as being of equal value in terms of how demanding it is
*work of equal value - this is work which is not similar and has not been rated as equivalent, but is of equal value in terms of demands such as effort, skill and decision-making."

Says it much better than I can!!!

[1Mother20152015]

There are loads of qual pay cases which the employment lawyers no MN can explain better than I can. A whole heap of public sector employees in places like Liverpool won damages a while back as the work was assessed as equal value.

However that is not relevant really to the thread. The law is that in a particular job say an office job, a graduate office job let us imagine, some people may be being paid different levels. Sometimes it is because women (or men) have not asked for more pay who are on the same level. Sometimes it reflects annual assessments so you might well find a woman paid much more than a male colleague ( I have an example in mind) because they have done better work on some metrics they are assessed against or one was a lateral hire who was already paid a lot. My adult child was asked last week what she earned elsewhere in an interview and that would be used in any job offer and it might well be higher pay than someone else already there whom they don't have to tempt in.

That apart most studies show women don't ask for pay rises as much as men and don't take as many risks with job changes and do not think they are as good as they are so we just need to encourage them to ask about pay more and help them learn how to handle pay negotiations. It isn't easy whether you are male or female. I turn a lot of work away because the person will not pay enough (I work for myself) and I send them off to cheaper people.

[kinkajoukid]

I guess then that the OP needs to know how she and her male colleague compare against various metrics assess if she is doing the same work.

But it isn't just as simple as assuming that length of tenure = better performance. Or 'rewarding loyalty' but for no real added value to the company because as nice as this sounds, it also disadvantages women who have taken time out for caring duties but otherwise are equally 'loyal'.

[hotbutteredcrumpetsandtea]

It's also about your worth to the company and your negotiating skills. You might have gone in and accepted whatever they offered at interview. I might have told them I need a higher offer to leave my present job and have negotiated 25% more than you got.

[kinkajoukid]

Also, it is hard to ask for a raise if you fear being turned down because you have had time off for looking after sick children (or their fear that you might). So that is clearly why it isn't as simple as leaving it to employers generosity when look after their staff.