AIBU to feel annoyed that male colleague is paid £5k more than me?

[Octonautstotherescue]

We do the same job although I’m more qualified. I found out his pay details by accident yesterday. Couldn’t believe it and feel like a mug now. This isn’t right or legal is it?

[Firesuit]

A lot of employers don't negotiate on pay. I've been working for over 20 years and have never had an employer who would negotiate on salary, it has always been take it or leave it.

That isn't necessarily an obstacle to getting higher pay though. Presumably you accepted the best offer available at the time. At that exact moment you weren't underpaid, provably, because you had tested the market and found what you could get.

Where many people go wrong is by not continuously testing the market when they in a job. If you do that, and you can't get more elsewhere, you are not underpaid. If you can, why haven't you gone to the other job?

In my world, it's always the employee's fault if they are underpaid.

[bananafish81]

@RobotGoat interesting. The work I did was global - I remember spending quite a lot of Rome with research by EY, credit suisse, mckinsey and the WEF

Many many factors, but the narrative was the same. At graduate level the salaries are level, then the gap widens and widens from about the mid 20s as pay negotiations and moving jobs becomes more of a factor

If I have time I'll dig some of it out - it was fascinating (and depressing!)

[bananafish81]

*rome = time!!

[BakedBeans47]

My guess is the company will claim it's a merit-based decision.

Funny how men consistently are deserving of more money than women.

Fucking pay gap.

Quite stompy. And funny also how so many women will also buy into this.

OP YANBU. It’s at the very least worth asking why this is the case when you are better qualified than him.

In my last (female dominated) job we found out that the men (much fewer in number and very mediocre performance wise) were all at the top of the pay scale. In no fucking way were they deserving of it based on merit.

[C8H10N4O2]

Its illegal to pay women less than men for the same work. In practice its rarely that clear cut so its still widespread.

Your options will depend on the type of org you work for.

• can you negotiate pay there? Can you walk in and as for a rise?
  
• do they have a policy on this (most big companies do)?
  

I work in a male dominated industry. I've heard every excuse under the some for why woman A is just not quite worth as much as woman B, including appraisal systems which are systemically biased in favour of men.

I would ask for more money, I would also start looking for another job because often that and promotion are the only ways to get a substantial pay rise. This is what I did each time I was in that situation. I'm not pretending its an easy option and I resent that I had to do this whilst watching mediocre men get the penis rises but pragmatically - that was my option.

[Sevendown]

Wow the attitudes here are astonishing.

Unequal pay is illegal.

It isn't your fault.

It may be there's a reason for the disparity e.g. years of experience but it's the employers legal obligation to prove that not your imperative to prove discrimination.

[ILoveMillhousesDad]

Go to your union rep or full-time union officer. Lodge a grievance about equal pay.

If you are a woman in a company being paid less, I hazard a guess there are more women on the same grade as some men (not necessarily the same job, but the same grade), being paid less.

[ILoveMillhousesDad]

It may be there's a reason for the disparity e.g. years of experience

It doesn't really matter. Unless it's the same grade and someone has an increment because they have been there longer - fine.

[bananafish81]

This was interesting:

http://gap.hks.harvard.edu/do-women-avoid-salary-negotiations-evidence-large-scale-natural-field-experiment

When job ads aren't posted saying that pay is negotiable, women are less likely to ask. When the job ad says pay is negotiable, the pay gap closes as both genders will negotiate

The more interesting and nuanced stuff came from the 30 percent club https://30percentclub.org/assets/uploads/UK/ThirdPartyyReports/KFHGGenderrPayGapp_whitepaper.pdf

[PinkDaffodil2]

At DH's work there are two doing the same job - him and a woman with same experience, started around the same time. She is paid 10% more because she asked for more when applying. Good for her!
DH doing his bit to reduce the gender pay gap.

[AppleKatie]

In my world, it's always the employee's fault if they are underpaid.

This is an extraordinary statement. Is it true of every disadvantage in 'your world'?

The gender pay gap is a well documented and researched 'thing'. And yet the default for so many (women?) posting here is that the woman on the receiving end is either mistaken, wrong or at best should just accept and look for a new job.

I will concede that the third option is by a long long way the 'least bad' and in a real world application may end up the most palatable.

I repeat my earlier point however. Depressing.

[Mummyoflittledragon]

My dh has been with his company for over 20years. It used to be a very lucrative business and very well paid. He was heading toward the top of his pay scale but didn’t want the hassle of higher management so has stayed at his level for years. And then they adjusted the payscale downward so he was outside it. He is paid far more than anyone else in an equivalent position. However, he is always sent on start ups, to trouble shoot etc because he’s so well respected. Some of his closer colleagues know this and it’s a bit of a standing joke because they know he’s worth the money.

If your employer can argue that your colleague adds more value than you, it’s ok. If not, you would need to know your legal position. However, most companies do have a salary grade scale and these are pretty wide.

[EBearhug]

I blame most of it on the secrecy round pay. I don't think I am paid as much as some of my male colleagues, despite my manager telling me I'm the best performer in the team. But I don't know.

[19lottie82]

Unequal pay is illegal
Sigh....... NO, it isn’t.

A company offers 2 positions for the same job. At the interview two candidates are asked their salary expectations.

Candidate A says they want £23k pa, company says OK and they start work the next week.

Candidate B (who is a different gender to Candidate A) says they want £19k pa. company says OK and they start the same day as A, doing the exact same job.

What part of this is illegal exactly?

What would be illegal if it was down to discrimination, but the absolute majority of the time it’s more likely to be because of situations like that above.

[1DAD2KIDS]

There's no way to know without all the factors if the Op is BU or not.

Also higher/more qualifications doesn't always mean best at the job/higher proformance. In my last job I didn't have all the courses/training some others did but I was always the one sent to tackle the most difficult jobs. Basically because I had a far better track record of getting results and rectifying problem (fixed scales so no extra for me). My mates sister works in the oil industry. She applied for a job on the ship's. With only a degree in chemistry she was the weakest candidate qualification wise and did not meet the ideal qualifications for the job. But she was ex merchant navy and non of the other candidate had experiance on ships. The company often found that most without prior experiance at sea (however clever and qualified) never lasted long in the job. So they gave her (despite being under educated for the role) the job. She has flown up the ladder ahead of those with more/higher qualifications.

On the wider issuses this seem more down to a case of those bold enough get more. That to me has is the way of the world for me and women. Often more about the person that sells tgem self better and belive rather than always the most tallented. There are plenty of men too who feel others are paid less than others too. I think we need to look at the way women are socialised to understand why women (on the whole) are not successfully demanding more. Not so much about the conspicuous Legae of Patriarchy gathering round the table, stroking their fluffy white kittens, twidling their curly mustashes and saying 'ha ha ha how can we make sure women are paid less'.

[Crunchymum]

All positions at my company (global software co.) are advertised without salary.

There is a range with way position and it is negotiated as part of the recruitment process.

Usually salary is based on experience but it also comes down to how well a person can negotiate. I've known candidates successfully command a salary outside of the range for a particular position, based solely on their negotiation skills (and how much the company wanted to employ them of course)

[AppleKatie]

Or perhaps we should at society and consider why it is that when a women demands more money she is much less likely to be taken seriously and actually offered it. And look at the socialisation of hiring managers and why they instinctively consider male applicants to be worth more.

[EBearhug]

Not so much about the conspicuous Legae of Patriarchy gathering round the table, stroking their fluffy white kittens, twidling their curly mustashes and saying 'ha ha ha how can we make sure women are paid less'.

Well, no, if it were that clear-cut, it would be far easier to challenge. It's because it's insidious, unconscious bias. Most people will say they believe in equal pay for equal work, but when it comes to assessing staff for bonuses and so on, they're often not quite so even-handed, and judge different people differently for the same behaviours - and may be entirely unaware that they are doing that.

[murasaki]

in HE we have scales up to professorial level, then it's negotiate your own. I'm in professional and support, so have access to all salaries for grant costing etc. It's notable that the male profs are on higher wages, presumably because they push harder than women at the negotiation stage. However there are a few female profs higher than some of the men, but they have all been recruited from other institutions, not promoted internally, and have clearly had what they felt was more scope to push for higher salaries as we wanted them. Nearly all internal promotions male or female are lower than externals of both sexes.
However luckily our HoD is good at telling female staff when he thinks they should go in for a payrise and supporting them, I'm not sure some would if he didn't haul them in for the chat about it...

[Walkingdead11]

No sexism doesn't happen, we all live in perfect equality where women have to learn to be tough like men and negotiate better conditions.....ergo it's womens own fault!! 🤔

[Atenco]

In the private sector, pay is based on how good you are at your job and how much money you make your employer

I am astounded at all this defense of unequal pay. Back in the sixties my mother worked in the private sector and got paid a third of what the man beside her earned and she was bloody good at her job. Then some wonderful feminists got to work and managed to introduce the Equal Pay Act, now you lot are delighted to through all that those women achieved out the window, bending over backwards to defend the employer.

[murasaki]

I didn't mean that, sorry, was just describing the situation as I see it happening, not that I agree with it at all.

Just that anecdotally it does look as if men push harder. Why that is is a mystery to me.

[FlouncyDoves]

This is blatantly a troll winding you all up

[murasaki]

Saying that, Wasn't there a case in Birmingham recently where the dinner ladies took the council to court saying they should be paid as much as the refuse collectors (predominately male) and won? The back pay was huge as I recall.

[Oblomov17]

OP?