AIBU to feel annoyed that male colleague is paid £5k more than me?

[Octonautstotherescue]

We do the same job although I’m more qualified. I found out his pay details by accident yesterday. Couldn’t believe it and feel like a mug now. This isn’t right or legal is it?

[Didntcomeheretofuckspiders]

On my experience, if you make a fuss about the Equality Act, your employers will give you the pay rise for a quiet life.

In a job DP did previously, a new colleague was given a higher salary to do the same job as DP and another (female) colleague. Female colleague made a claim with reference to the equality act, DP then made a piggyback claim. Cost the company about £7000 and because it was a job with a high staff turnover and thus unlikely to have three managers leave or be hired at the same time, they have had to honour this salary ever since.

[Amaried]

It is legal. If fairly certain that I am on more than similarly qualified colleagues because I have notice a few months ago and they offered me a Pay rise to stay. He could simply be a really good negotiator rather than simply accept first offer

[outedmyselfagain]

Any company will employ a person on the minimum they can get away with.

I got a big promotion on secondment. They refused to pay me more than the very top of my contracted pay bracket (12k less than the bottom of the bracket for the new job!).

I did it for a year and a permanent job in the new department opened up and was advertised at the normal rate for that job.

I applied. I got it. I then had a hell of a fight on my hands to get them to pay me the advertised rate. Their argument was that I’d been happy to do it for the lower rate for a year, why should they pay more.

My argument was that I was doing a job of a senior colleague and that everyone else doing the role at the level I was, was earning about 50% more than me. That they were giving me more and more responsibility over people who had worked there years and were paid better than me. In the end, what clinched it was when I told them that I’d decline the job offer and go back to my old job for an easier life if they didn’t pay me appropriately for the harder job!

And telling my new line manager, who hadn’t known about the pay arrangement for my secondment and told me that he was embarrassed for them that they expected me to work for so much less than everyone else.

Was it because I’m female? Maybe, maybe not.

[1DAD2KIDS]

Social care is a nightmare. Better pay may fill more vacancies but there is little funding for it so people won't pay more than min wage. Catch 22, constant shortage of staff puts pressure on the carers doing the job of two and thus they get fed up and leave. Many of the people who worked with my ex it was the only job that would take them and many would Jack it in the following weeks. Sobering though when you hope the people caring for you or a loved one should be people who actually want to do the job and take pride in the care they give. My ex wife dropped out of school at 14, never got qualifications. Now the only thing to her name is her care qualifications over the years. She says she only does it because it's the only job anywhere in the country she can walk in and be hired straight away. Anyway probably going off on a tangent there.

[treaclesoda]

In my area nearly every care home is desperate for staff, the health trust is desperate for carers and the private companies are constantly trying to fill vacancies. But it's still paid at minimum wage. I don't entirely believe that supply and demand dictates salaries across the board, there seem to be other factors too (although I fully admit that I don't know what those factors are).

[MrsTerryPratchett]

I’m tempted to think that some jobs are hazardous because they are done by men. The amount of construction workers that go to work off their heads round my way is terrifying. Not the UK so it’s meth and crack. Then people fall off stuff. Well no shit.

[1DAD2KIDS]

MrsTerryPratchett precisely gender roles again. Care work is still class as "woman" work. It would be nice to see barriers broken down and more men in care work. I agree it is unpleasant and sometimes dangerous (my ex worked in care with some dangous clients) but it still not responsible for the same amounts of employee deaths and dibilatating injuries as say refuse collection. But with care work there is an endless supply of staff. Plus a lot of turn over of staff because people don't stick it out. There are some of the "men's" jobs that I doubt anyone would (or should) work for minimum wage. I remember when we moved to one part of North Yorkshire (a very affluent rural area) care actully paid far better due to lack of people who would work for min wage. My point is women should not be define by gender roles and have free access to traditional "men's" jobs, even the unpleasant ones. Look at the world of cleaning. Men as a whole are paid more. But then they do the bulk of industrial and hazardous cleaning jobs. Women tend to still be held to more domestic type cleaning. If women did more of these better paid jobs the pay gap would further reduce.

Atenco the job stopped becoming so respected and well paid as the supply of more people became educated.

OnionShite there is heavy lifting involved (hopefully in line with H&S plus hoists etc). But for all that is said about care work (that i have a lot of respect for) the top most hazardous jobs are still mens zones and maybe this needs to change. I may even out the male to female mortality rare too (sorry a bit morbid). Likewise this is the problem with gender roles. Why are women flocking to care work and not building, refuse collection, handling of hazodous good ect? If gender mix of certain industries effects tge pay gap surely a big leap forward would be to see a better mix of gender across the board?

Surely it's time women get a piece of the cake in these industries?

[OnionShite]

Mmm, care home jobs usually involve a lot of heavy lifting!

[Atenco]

1DAD2KIDS you are at best naive. Any job traditionally believed to be women's work is paid a lot less than traditional men's work. In fact in the nineteenth century secretarial work was well respected and well remunerated, but in the 20th century it became women's work with the corresponding drop in salary and respect.

Lots of traditional women's work includes heavy lifting and is still paid at women's wages.

[MrsTerryPratchett]

Care work. Dirty, unpleasant and dangerous. Almost solely done by women and astonishingly poorly paid.

[1DAD2KIDS]

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 no a genuine part of the pay gap picture. Some of the most unpleasant, physical and hazardous work is often considered "men's" work. But this work often brings higher levels of pay due to its undesirability and the physical risk and toll it takes. By following gender roles we exclude women from access to this wage. This sort of work is access to a higher wage for people who have less opportunities and/or prefer say more physical rather than desk work. So seriously I would like to see lots more women working in these enviroments. It would be shattering of one of the biggest gender roles and give women more opportunities to earn more.

[treaclesoda]

There is added complication when you factor in that two people starting at the same level on the same pay might not be set identical targets so when you have performance related payrises, one might exceed their targets whilst the other doesn't, but actually they are working at the same level. I used to work for a huge company where the women were always set up with more difficult targets. The reason given was that 'women can type quicker, therefore all the work at the computer should be easier for them'. So male staff stormed their way up the payscale quicker than female staff. On paper it was fair because they had exceeded their targets whilst female staff had just met their targets. But in reality it wasn't. In the same job, we had to handle a lot of customer interaction by phone. Customers would often ask a question of a female member of staff and disbelieve the answer. So the women spent half an hour on the phone with a customer arguing. Eventually it might be escalated to a manager who would confirm that the staff member was right. Yet the same customer could ring the next day, get the most junior of male staff members, ask a question, accept the answer and be off the phone in five minutes, allowing the male staff member to get back to what they were doing. This didn't just happen occasionally, it was all day every day. Those types of jobs are not a level playing field at all.

[kinkajoukid]

Also, it is hard to ask for a raise if you fear being turned down because you have had time off for looking after sick children (or their fear that you might). So that is clearly why it isn't as simple as leaving it to employers generosity when look after their staff.

[hotbutteredcrumpetsandtea]

It's also about your worth to the company and your negotiating skills. You might have gone in and accepted whatever they offered at interview. I might have told them I need a higher offer to leave my present job and have negotiated 25% more than you got.

[kinkajoukid]

I guess then that the OP needs to know how she and her male colleague compare against various metrics assess if she is doing the same work.

But it isn't just as simple as assuming that length of tenure = better performance. Or 'rewarding loyalty' but for no real added value to the company because as nice as this sounds, it also disadvantages women who have taken time out for caring duties but otherwise are equally 'loyal'.

[1Mother20152015]

There are loads of qual pay cases which the employment lawyers no MN can explain better than I can. A whole heap of public sector employees in places like Liverpool won damages a while back as the work was assessed as equal value.

However that is not relevant really to the thread. The law is that in a particular job say an office job, a graduate office job let us imagine, some people may be being paid different levels. Sometimes it is because women (or men) have not asked for more pay who are on the same level. Sometimes it reflects annual assessments so you might well find a woman paid much more than a male colleague ( I have an example in mind) because they have done better work on some metrics they are assessed against or one was a lateral hire who was already paid a lot. My adult child was asked last week what she earned elsewhere in an interview and that would be used in any job offer and it might well be higher pay than someone else already there whom they don't have to tempt in.

That apart most studies show women don't ask for pay rises as much as men and don't take as many risks with job changes and do not think they are as good as they are so we just need to encourage them to ask about pay more and help them learn how to handle pay negotiations. It isn't easy whether you are male or female. I turn a lot of work away because the person will not pay enough (I work for myself) and I send them off to cheaper people.

[kinkajoukid]

And equal work is more than just doing the exact same job and same work. it applies to comparable jobs too...

[https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/equal-pay-equal-work-matter-law] says:

"The comparator may be doing the same job as the woman, or he may be doing a different job. She can claim equal pay for equal work with a comparator doing work that is:
*like work - this is where the works involves similar tasks which require similar skills, and any differences in the work are not of practical importance
*work rated as equivalent - this is where the work has been rated under a fair job evaluation scheme as being of equal value in terms of how demanding it is
*work of equal value - this is work which is not similar and has not been rated as equivalent, but is of equal value in terms of demands such as effort, skill and decision-making."

Says it much better than I can!!!

[kinkajoukid]

hotbuttered well wouldn't that come down to output then or some other a measurable indicator eg quality of work taken on/ allocated eg the more experienced/ longer served taking the more complex cases or getting through more cases. In that case, they would not be doing the same job.

If there is a distinction in responsibility this is usually indicated by something like senior XYZ and would include some extra responsibility like allocating the work or a supervisory aspect and so is measurably a different and not equal job.

But otherwise, if the experience gives no advantage, and there is no differentiation in workload be it in output or difficulty and the job title is the same, wouldn't this be two people doing equal jobs and therefore, shouldn't the pay be the same?

[AppleKatie]

OP not coming back after all the lovely advice 'she' has been given?

Would you come back? If you felt you were a victim of sexism and 80% of a long running thread told you it must be your fault and you probably are worth less than him?

Then a few more pile on to call you a troll?

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't come back either tbh.

[hotbutteredcrumpetsandtea]

Am I completely wrong or is it just the majority of posters on this thread have it wrong!!!

Yes you have it wrong. Because filling boxes is not a good example. Yes, anyone filling the same number of boxes should be paid the same. But what about jobs where length of service, experience etc makes you better at your job? How do you quantify then if they are doing the exact same job?

[TittyGolightly]

In the UK Employers cannot pay a man more than a woman for doing the same job under the Equality Act 2010.

Yes they can.

[Acadia]

You need to include the paragraph where you state what happened when you asked for a pay rise. You don't just get given one.

And two, you need to include the bit where you justify that you do just as good a job, or more, and have gone above and beyond and thus deserve the pay rise.

They won't just randomly go around paying men more, but they will give pay rises when a staff member asks and CAN JUSTIFY it.

So that's your next step.

They're not going to come over and say "Well, Bob just asked for £5000 more and showed us evidence of the extra project he took on, duties he did and input he gave. So congrats, you get £5k too."

[kinkajoukid]

I am confused... the link to the Equality and Human Rights Commission gives information that men and women should have "equal pay for equal work" regardless of several factors including "length of service",

So to me this means that if ManA is paid £10 an hour for filling 20 boxes an hour and WomanB is paid £9 an hour for filling 20 boxes an hour, then WomanB should also be paid £10 an hour regardless of whether the man has been there 5 years longer than her. Her output and responsibilities are exactly the same as his. His length of service does not mean he does more work or better work.

So the key being that they both do they same job to the same standard so that makes it equal work. if ManA had extra responsibilties because of his extra experience then he would be allowed to be paid extra.

The problem with paying more for simply for more experience or length of service but without requiring extra output or duties, is that this frequently puts women at a disadvantage because it is usually women that take time out of work to care for children or elderly relatives. it is a structural/ societal issue. Hence the idea that if the work (and output) is the same, then the work is equal and the pay should be equal.

Am I completely wrong or is it just the majority of posters on this thread have it wrong!!! ;)

[Atenco]

I think it's simply that many people don't like to call 'sexism' with little or no evidence. It devalues the term

My evidence for sexism in matters of pay is historical and present in the UK.

None of us know the details of this particular case, but about 80% of the people on here are automatically assuming that the man has some unknown superiority to the woman where he merits his higher pay.

[Atenco]

Does it matter if it is a troll, frankly? This is an interesting and shocking thread. I have really had my eyes opened