Topshop gender neutral changing rooms part 2

[BahHumbygge]

Part 1 here

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3080957-To-alert-you-to-the-fact-that-Topshop-just-changed-its-policy-to-let-men-into-the-womens-changing-rooms

Wow. I'm so glad I found this thread and people who I might be able to discuss this stuff with.

I am a doctor. I am also a regular on here and have namechanged just for this post. I don't feel able to discuss these topics professionally or on professional forums, or even places I might be identifiable as a doctor because I am afraid of what effect it may have on my career.

I work with a really difficult population, I specialise in the psychiatry of people who are mentally disordered offenders. A large part of my job is psychiatric assessments of serious offenders. Most of these people are not unwell, but in cases of murder it's a statutory requirement and in serious cases such as rape/serious assault the judge or crown prosecution service often requests a report simply to exclude mental illness.

I have been told by not one but multiple sex offenders that they can't wait until the laws change. This is because where I work there are multiple old, horrible men's prisons. There is one quite new, pleasant women's prison where they have things like carpets and single-person cells. I have been asked on multiple occasions about "can I be a woman while I'm inside and go to xxxx prison?"

At present, I am able to refer to the current medical guidance around presenting as a woman for x period of time etc. I can offer referral to a specialist clinic. This puts a lot of them off. It's too much work.

If/when things change, this will not be the case. I have been told by prisoners like the ones above that they'll be "Ladying it up". There is implicit, and sometimes explicit, statement that in doing this they will have access to a female population which is their preferred population to offend against.

Why do they tell me this?

Because I am a woman, and they wish to frighten me. That's the reality of many of our incarcerated sex offenders.

While I don't doubt that there are many dysphoric people who wish to transition and live as the opposite sex, they're not who I'm anxious about. As someone more eloquently said, this isn't about transsexual people it's about this idea of gender neutrality and the effect it has on other protected groups.

MyCatsareKitKats

Maria Miller was told, quite explicitly, by the prison service that they had every confidence that sex offenders would transition purely to exploit women.

She utterly ignored them.

Have you written to your MP?

... or better yet, visited them?

Good article here in the Sun written by a Trans woman, explaining why she doesn't think it a good idea!

www.thesun.co.uk/uncategorized/4882764/miranda-yarley-comment-gender-nuetral-changing-rooms-topshop-topman/amp/

"What can we do ?"

Write to your MP

Follow up with a visit to the same MP

Tell them that woman's rights are being elimitated in order to virtual signal to the trans population. That these new rules will make things difficult for the original transsexuals and woman. Whilst literally opening the door to female only spaces to sexual offenders.

Take copies of leaflets that they need to read.

Including the Sage leaflet mentioned below, full of all the basic facts.

The Transgendertrend web address with its alternative school based reports on supporting gender non confirming children without throwing girls under the bus.

Tell your MP that many of the original transsexuals are concerned too. Miranda Yardley being a highly recognized example in this category, who is supportive of women's rights and a Mumsnetter.

Search the Mumsnet Feminist section for other links. The damage to girls's safety in schools, woman's rape centres, woman's prisions, women's sports, women's grants, etc.

It is a never ending list of problems but they all start with the potential amendments to the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) that are being debated by government over the next few months.

Tell your MP to OPPOSE the changes to the Gender Recognition Act

Thinking about changing rooms in shops - I can think of many shops that sell clothes for women and men and that only have 1 set of changing rooms.

It's unusual to find changing rooms in shops that are clearly labelled as mens or womens changing rooms. Mpst changing rooms are labelled as changing rooms and not actively labelled as male or female.

It's very unusual to find a changing room that is actively labelled as gender neutral - all welcome. Urban Outfitters did it.

Don't know where you live. Round he it is usual to have changing room in the area with the men's clothes and I've in the area with the women's clothes. Do they really need labels?

Like with toilets, nine of this is law, it's by convention and social agreement. The changing room in the section with all the women's clothing is for women, men go in the one where all the men's clothes are.

These unwritten rules and social conventions are now being broken and the question is, what impact does that have.

Many shops I go to have technically unisex changing but they are cubicles on the main shop floor so you're more protected from someone trying to look over the top or "accidentally" opening the door/curtain because they'd be in full view of other shoppers and staff - I don't mind those, but if they were in a separate area out of sight of other shoppers and staff then I would not want them unisex.

I find the idea of gender neutral changing rooms less intimidating that the non-cubicle open changing rooms in women's clothes shops I had to use back in the 70s as a teenager.

Is it time to do something positive? A series of transsexual -supportive but anti GRA silent sit-ins at Topshop stores, on a flash mob basis? In the meantime sounding out my local MP.

Correct me if im wrong, but as I see it its not neccessarily about the unisex changing room, as many places have these.
Its about a man (who admits he DOES NOT IDENTIFY AS A FEMALE) who wants access to a space designed for females.

Its about the WANTS of MEN over the NEEDS and RIGHTS of WOMEN.

At the moment there is a CHOICE whether or not to change in a place that has unisex facilities. If MEN like Travis get their way, the CHOICE is taken away. Women will have no option to get changed with MEN. So many women will not have access to these facilities for religious/cultural/safety reasons. Then you have to think when will it end? At refuges? Prisons? Hospitals? Many of these women who for whatever reason (religious etc) would not be able to access these. For example, a Muslim woman NEEDS to have a smear. She requests a female nurse/doctor. Kevin has decided he self identifies as Keira today. Because Kevin has decided to self identify he (for today) a woman in the eyes of the law. The Muslim woman either has the option of having a MAN examine her or wait. Which for all we know could be life threatening as we all know early prevention is prefferable.

Please note, I am not talking about transgender women who want to transition to live as woman permanently. Im talking about men like Travis who have no intention of actually living as a woman.

I just do not get this. Womens safety needs a to be protected in vulnerable areas. Why on was earth not just make a third, separarate space for changing rooms for people who identify as trans??

Sancerresanwine

Well yes, that’s the obvious answer. I sincerely hope that is the way forward.

Unfortunately that’s not what trans people (or controlling men as in this case), want. Because it’s not about a place to change, it’s about validating their identity. or, in this case, making a big song and dance because you haven’t got your own way.

Numerous times I’ve seen a third space suggested and it’s been called transphobic. Because they are actually women. Apparently.

Not to be goady - serious question- where does the WI stand on the issues raised by the current GRA wording?

I don't know specifically but our local w.i is open to anyone who identifies as a woman. We have a transwoman attend ours.

Every time I read one of these threads I come away feeling chilled. Huge respect to all women who are trying make their voices heard on this matter despite all the threats of violence flying around the internet.

Remember when the bathroom bill was being discussed? Remember when it was suggested that trans etc could use disabled toilets? It was shot down. The argument was that they are not disabled therefore theyre not using them - its womens toilets or hissy fits. Interestingly enough, the majority of places I go to do not have seperate baby changing facilities - the disabled toilet is also the baby changing room, yet neither myself nor my baby are disabled. I have yet to hear parents stamp their feet and shriek that these places are discriminating against their rights to have changing facilities in all toilets. As women we are expected to put up and shut up to accomodate a tiny minority who have shown they will not compromise and are leaving the only possible solution as a free for all pervert pass ( by allowing men who identify as men free access).

For those who do not mind changing around the opposite sex - good for you. This change wont affect you in the slightest, but there are many who are not ok with this for a variety of reasons and yet again we are meant to just put up and shut up. Voting with our feet is the only way shops take notice. Once the sales drop, so do the share prices and THAT is what is taken notice of. Lets hope Arcadia group did their research and know that the minority will make up the shortfall in lost sales hey...

wow you lot had to have a whole second thread to keep going over this.

@Scholes34 yes there are uni sex areas elsewhere but ALL of the ones that I have been to are solid doors so that everyone can get changed and feel comfortable and safe.

There has however been a rise in incidents of women being filmed by men in those areas. On the old thread I linked to several just in Asda. This had been an issue elsewhere.

There are also women who for religious reasons can't comfortably get changed behind a curtain in a mixed general population area.

Guides and Brownies is already self identified woman/girls.

So men can help put at meeting and sleepover if they 'feel like a woman' and boys can sleep in the same room and change with the girls is they 'feel like a girl'

Not that 'feel like a woman's or 'feel like a girl' actually means anything like what girls and woman actually feel like, we don't count.

If transwomen do not want to change in the men's changing rooms because it is 'unsafe', then surely the shops should be focussing on making sure that the men's changing rooms ARE safe! (ditto toilets and any other single-sex spaces).

TopShop could then show how progressive they are by putting signs up in the men's changing rooms saying 'Safe Space - transgender customers welcome to change here. Abuse will not be tolerated'. They could then make statements saying male violence against women and transgender people is a great concern. They are therefore being proactive about tackling BOTH safety concerns by a) normalising and protecting gender non-conformity in men's spaces whilst b) ensuring that female-only changing areas are retained, both for women's privacy and in respect of the religious requirement of many of their customers for women-only changing rooms.

Problem solved, surely? TopShop get to be genuinely progressive, both transmen and transwomen know they are safe in the men's room and women know that their women-only space will not be compromised. The actual motives of any man who complains at not being allowed in the women's changing room are then under scrutiny, when the 'safety' argument is no longer an issue. Plus, the issue of Islamophobia is also raised - and I'm sure that there are far more Muslim girls than transwomen shopping at TopShop.

Blanchefleur

Excellent. And I wish they would. It would highlight the actual problem, which is men wanting validation.

@carrieblue totally agree about Breitbart.
However this happened shortly after they made the changing rooms accessible to all and is the kind of thing that worries many of us becoming more widespread should gender self-recognition/unisex facilities become common place.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/mobile.nytimes.com/2016/07/15/us/target-transgender-idaho-voyeurism.amp.html

Men can be creepy enough in public places (see #metoo and #everydaysexism) without giving them the means to access private places.

For avoidance of doubt, I an talking about men (including cross dressing males like Shauna) not trans women.

@BatShite

We have sex segregation in places like boardrooms but apparently this is bad.

I will never, ever understand why some people are so het up and hyperbolic over such insignificant issues.

------------

I think that such irrational indignation over something so insignificant makes and kind of progression for matters that actually count, so much more difficult.

It pisses me off that feminism has been hi-jacked by this nonsense.

It didn't used to be about snowflakeness and man-hating. It was about equality.

I used to be proud to be a woman and fight for what I believed. Now, when people ask if I'm a feminist etc, I feel I need to qualify and answer.

Outrageous

Stories like this make me furious and devastated in equal measures. Travis and co - THIS is why women need equal rights. It's not about you wanting to wear a dress and cherry pick what you think is the good stuff about being a woman!!!

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/08/mexico-miscarriage-trial-perscution-women-abortion

greyAndFullOfSleep
It pisses me off that feminism has been hi-jacked by this nonsense.

Feminism has been hijacked by the nonsense wishes of some to keep females safe from males, in the face of overwhelming evidence that shows males are a danger to females. Wow, thats horrendous. hmm]

What matters would you say 'actually count' out of curiosity?

I also do not know any feminists who hate men.