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To be shocked at the sheer amount of hatred and ignorance about transpeople on mumsnet

739 replies

Curiositykilledthecat113 · 04/11/2017 22:22

Specifically transwomen, according to the majority of mumsnet, all transwomen want to rape biological women, “steal their womanhood” and all sorts of other ridiculous, offensive statements without any factual backing.

So why is Mumsnet so intolerant and ignorant towards transgender people?

OP posts:
OrderMeACurry · 05/11/2017 22:54

And since, by your own admission, you aren't trans yourself @toconclude it might be wise to take your own advice and STFU. You have no right telling myself and other transsexuals what to think or feel either.

brasty · 05/11/2017 22:57

These threads always assume that people do not know any Trans people. It was meeting and getting to know Trans people that made me agree with the dominant view about this on MN.

OrderMeACurry · 05/11/2017 23:21

Do you know anything of the transitioning process at all?

Considering I have been through/am going through the transitioning process myself, yes actually I do.

Nowhere has it even been said that it would be as simple as “just saying” you’re a woman.

Except that it will be that simple if this law goes through.

I think you're confused here. You seem to be under the impression that you will need to start/go through a physical transition in order to be a transwoman/transman. That was indeed the case until recently but there is now a big push for self identification.

If this proposed gender ID law is put through then someone won't need to start a physical transition. They won't even need to change the way they dress. All they will need to is fill in a form and that's it.

A similar law has already been put through in the US so now we have people like Danielle Muscato claiming to be a woman and taking up space in a women's shelter. If you don't know who Danielle Muscato is then google her.

let me introduce you to “advanced biology”

What exactly is this 'advanced biology' that I keep seeing being quoted? Nobody has actually bothered to explain wtf this 'advanced biology' is.

which is that mental illnesses such as gender dysphoria are the cause of transgenderism

You're a bit behind with the times there. It is now transphobic to say that gender dysphoria is a mental illness; that's why it's becoming near impossible to get treatment for it. It is also now transphobic to say you must have gender dysphoria in order to be trans.

it’s not really as simple as looks at penis or vagina wow I’m a women or a man

Except that it is as simple as that.

I can have all the surgery and take all the hormones in the world but I still won't have changed sex. I will have just altered my body in order to make it resemble the opposite sex.

I know this has been pointed out countless times before, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to get any kind of mental health support for gender dysphoria. It never used to be a problem however thanks to transactivism it is now near impossible to access neutral mental health support because any kind of therapy is now apparently transphobic and viewed as conversion therapy. Why don't people have a think about that before they start talking about suicide rates and self harm in trans people?

OrderMeACurry · 05/11/2017 23:23

And yes I know I'm coming across as very harsh tonight. I'm just sick of people (and it's always the same people) coming onto these threads, yelling "transphobic!" and then disappearing without actually bothering to engage or pointing out what it is that they find transphobic.

Sparkyduchess · 05/11/2017 23:45

Curry, I am always in awe of your patience on threads like these. You are so calm and measured, please don’t apologise for being ‘harsh’ - you’re so not.

3 years ago, I’m embarrassed to admit I was in the ‘oh fgs, where’s the harm’ camp - I’ve learned such a lot through reading and thinking about discussions on mumsnet. I am so appreciative of the sensible, reasoned discussion here.

Betty184 · 06/11/2017 00:02

I've been on the same type of drug being given to children to block puberty. I was on it for other medical reasons, for two years in my mid 20s, and it has completely screwed up my body and hormones for the decade since. I don't believe for a second that anyone who's been on medication like this would be happy to give it to their children. We don't yet have a longterm understanding of the effects of using these drugs at such a young age and these kids are basically being experimented on.

Sorry to hear that TammyswansonTwo.

There is actually some history of kids being given this kind of drug (although not on such a large scale as now) in cases of precocious puberty and there is evidence of serious, long-term harm:

www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

Strangely, enough the NHS recognises the risks of GnRH analogues, limits their use and warns of the serious side-effects on adults when used for non-trans-related purposes:

www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Premenstrual-syndrome/Pages/Treatment.aspx

But when being used on prepubescent children for transactivist-approved purposes they are apparently absolutely harmless and the effects are 'fully reversible' Hmm

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/

HidingBehindTheWallpaper · 06/11/2017 00:06

Curry. You are amazing. Going through such a difficult journey and still having the time to talk about it on here. Thank you.

Betty184 · 06/11/2017 01:00

Curry Finally something in the press pointing out that not all trans people think the proposed legislation is a good idea:

www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/transgender-women-criticise-reform-xtp9n6mn0

Transgender women criticise reform

“It used to be fun being a tranny but people have lost their sense of humour. All you get is this moaning and whining. We’re caught in a right mess.”

Miranda Yardley is joking, but she is deadly serious in her opposition to government plans to revolutionise the very definition of male and female.

At some point in the coming days or weeks, the government will publish its consultation on the Gender Recognition Act. Instead of having to obtain a medical diagnosis of gender dysphoria, (the condition in which you feel you do not belong in your biological sex), demonstrating that you have lived in your chosen gender for at least two years and providing evidence to an expert panel, people would be allowed to change their legal gender by simply declaring it themselves, under government proposals to speed up the process.

Justine Greening, the equalities minister, has hailed the move as “the next step forward” in advancing transgender rights.

Ms Yardley, a transgender activist, is one of a growing number of critics who are horrified by the lack of thought ministers appear to have given to the consequences of such a move.

She argues that the “deeply regressive” legislation will not only do little to tackle discrimination faced by transsexuals like herself, it would also render women unable to challenge opportunistic men who use it in bad faith to gain access to areas such as refuges, fitting-rooms and support groups for survivors of sexual abuse.

“It’s taking away rights from women to give to men. It is utterly perverse,” said Ms Yardley, 50, an accountant from Essex, who was born male, and underwent gender reassignment almost ten years ago. She defines herself as transsexual, never as a woman, “out of respect to women. I’m not trying to lay any claim to being a woman. I have not had the same life.”

At a meeting in the Houses of Parliament last week, Ms Yardley joined a broad cross-section of clinicians, parents, therapists, academics and gay rights and women’s groups, all united in their frustration at being unable to debate any transgender policy — such as questioning the wisdom of giving children life-changing treatment for conditions that are still not properly understood, or asking how self-declaration might skew female crime statistics — without being shouted down by a small, militant lobby of transgender activists. Legitimate scrutiny, they warned, was being silenced by a single word: “transphobe”.

“Have you seen my Twitter? It’s a bloodbath,” Ms Yardley said. Using the female pronoun is one thing, she says; feeling entitled to hijack womanhood on a whim, at the expense of other people’s rights, is quite another. “We’re being told that a trans woman is a woman. No debate. It’s almost like a cult. Obey the rules of the cult, enforce the rules and anyone who disagrees is kicked out.

“Never in the history of the black civil rights movement, or the lesbian and gay movement, did black people demand to be called white, or lesbians or gay men demand to be called heterosexual. Trans equality shouldn’t come at the expense of equity. Sometimes the most unfair thing to do is to treat everybody equally.”

Critics say that changing the law to protect transgender people on the basis of infinite, undefined notions of “gender identity” instead of “gender reassignment” is identity politics gone mad — as doomed as “trying to legislate for agnostics”, Ms Yardley says. “They’re looking at legislating for my thoughts and feelings and it is nonsense.”

About 650,000 people in the UK identify themselves as transgender. Many have supported moves to ease the administrative burden of changing gender.

A spokeswoman for Stonewall, the LGBT group, welcomed the public consultation, saying: “This review is desperately needed as it’s time to move the legislation on from being a long complicated bureaucratic process, which treats being trans as a mental illness. We believe a better gender recognition act is a crucial next step in achieving equality for all trans people and will help reduce the discrimination and abuse that is all too prevalent in our society. Transphobia in Britain is at epidemic levels and this has to change.”

However, Debbie Hayton, 49, a science teacher from Birmingham who transitioned five years ago, has serious concerns. For her, self-declaration is going backwards, not forwards.

“At the moment, we’ve got the option of saying, look, here are pieces of paper that say we’ve been assessed by society. If you replace that with self-identification only, then effectively these people are relying only on their own assertions. People [who may be hostile to trans people] could simply say, we don’t believe you. It actually weakens our position,” she said.

“The idea that somehow people will face less discrimination if they can self-declare is fallacious and it needs calling out. I don’t see how that is going to help us in our day-to-day lives. It doesn’t address transphobia in society or how we can move on from discrimination.”

How exactly, she asked, does being able to declare your gender overnight stop transgender people being passed over for promotion or discriminated in the workplace?

“How will it stop people being kept in the back office instead of public-facing roles, or change the attitude of employers who might think, ‘If I employ you there may be problems’?

“That is the kind of discrimination that worries me. That’s what I want to see tackled. Instead we’re getting involved in a battle that is totally unnecessary.”

She empathises with the concerns of women’s groups and recommends individual risk assessments if someone born male, but identifying as a woman, seeks to enter a protected space such as a refuge. “Yes, that’s discriminatory but sometimes you just have to accept that if you want to respect other people in society.”

Debate is not discrimination, Ms Hayton said. “If people have concerns, I’d much prefer them to be shared and aired. We need to debate these issues. That is not being transphobic.”

Arealhumanbeing · 06/11/2017 01:47

I have totally changed my perspective on trans issues. Reading things like Sam Smith saying that he's partly a woman as he likes heels and make up (may have paraphrased slightly wrongly) and realising that to some people, that is all that makes a woman, has made me question the entire issue.

What is female? How does a person feel female?

Anyone?

ILikeyourHairyHands · 06/11/2017 02:12

Me!

My DD is autistic and at the age of nine, oft tells me she's 'NOT A GIRL', she tells me she's a boy, she should be a boy.

And I ask her 'What makes a boy darling?' The only thing that defines me sexually is what is in my pants. Nothing else.

You can be the girl or woman that you want but I know that she doesn't want to be a bloke, she doesn't want hairy bollocks or to be a man.

She just feels unsure about herself, she feels unhappy with herself.

She is autistic, she feels that she doesn't fit, she hates herself, and so the modern parlance tells her the solution is to be a boy.

It's such a vile solution, it's abuse, it's abuse of young people who need direction, and help, not ridiculous validation.

SimoneOfHouseDavies · 06/11/2017 06:04

I also used to feel completely comfortable and accepting of the Trans movement. I do know some actual Trans people in real life. However as time has gone on we are now seeing these worrying issues particularly around Trans children and Trans women seeking to take over female spaces that has made me question everything. But to even ask questions makes you a bigot and a transphobe!

Has anyone seen what is happening in the world of women's sports? Trans women are competing among non trans women and literally smashing records. I wonder why?!! Seriously Google it you won't believe that this is acceptable by the sports bodies! Weight lifting, cycling, running, football, mma!! What the actual fuck is that about? We know that men in most cases are physically stronger and faster than woman, that's why these sports are sex segregated to begin with. Now someone who has been a man for the first thirty years of their life can just come along, take some hormones (which does reduce your physical ability to an extent, but they're still men's bodies fgs) and compete against women. And funnily enough they're doing really well and setting lots of new records.

How are women athletes supposed to compete with this? Start taking testosterone?

This has made me genuinely sad and worried about the future for my children. It seems the equality, rights and accolades we women have worked so hard for are now being taken back decades and biological men are telling us they know more what it is to be a woman than we do!

So what is it to be a woman then?! Or a man? I've yet to hear someone define it without resorting to outdated sexist stereotypes.

TammyswansonTwo · 06/11/2017 06:58

You're completely right Betty, I had forgotten about their use in precocious puberty. I honestly find it terrifying that these are being used on kids who are being told that the effects are fully reversible if you choose to stop.

As I said, I was on one of them for two years, during which time I lost a significant amount of weight and breast tissue, and completely lost my libido (as in, couldn't stand physical contact). This latter continued for a further five years after I stopped, and it required me to come off all hormonal treatments until it resolved. Obviously I had to work all of this out myself since doctors laughed me out of their offices any time I tried to get help.

Whilst on this drug I developed severe fatigue and chronic pain and was diagnosed with ME, even though I had a ton of other symptoms that weren't covered by that. 10 years on, after constant research, I'm 80% sure I have a rare condition called central hypothyroidism (there's very little information on the effect of gnrh analogues on the thyroid but there is some information out there) but it's very difficult to get a diagnosis since test results vary from regular hypothyroid results so I'm completely stuck like this until such a time my results change. And then of course there's the loss of bone density that's a huge concern as I get older.

This all happened to me about 15 years after I went through puberty. I dread to think what effect it would have had if I'd been pre-pubscent.
This drug is only licensed for 6 months use in adult women with endometriosis, and for good reason. This was ignored in my case and I stayed on it for 2 years and this was the result. The thought of longer term use in kids scares the crap out of me, is it really considered less dangerous than the mental health effects of a child waiting until they are an adult to make a decision on this? I've already seen stories of biological boys given these drugs who are now adults with micropenis, so insufficient tissue for GRS, and no libido whatsoever. I wonder what the future holds for these kids, it's just terrible.

If my children decided they were trans there's no way on earth I could agree to them being Lupron or similar. No way. The fact that it's being spoken of as if is just a handy pause button with no lasting effects is so frightening.

TammyswansonTwo · 06/11/2017 07:02

As to the comments about access to female spaces, I guess male privilege is much harder to remove than genitalia. The trans people I know are really dismayed by the narrative being pushed by TRAs and have no desire to be thought of as being identical to biological women.

For a start, isn't that erasing of their experiences too? Being trans isn't easy. It would be like a small group of black people insisting that everyone follows the "colourblind" mentality towards race. It implies to me that most of the TRAs insisting that they are treated simply as women have not experienced the difficulties and discrimination faced by those who have always been trans.

Ereshkigal · 06/11/2017 09:04

Tammy Flowers

I've had so many conversations with TRAs or allies where I've posted about Lupron and given the below links and others. They refuse to accept that puberty blockers are not "harmless" or "reversible", or that the act of stopping development is maybe not a "harmless" thing to do in and of itself.

Ereshkigal · 06/11/2017 09:06

If you question it you are told that you will drive children to suicide.

mirime · 06/11/2017 09:15

campaigning against FMG is thought by some to be highly transphobic too

What?

I'm not easily shocked, but that is....

Any links to this?

And I thought that the whole "abused/raped and have a problem with a penis? You are personally responsible for the oppression of transwomen" thing was bad enough.

Datun · 06/11/2017 09:15

If anyone can link me to the UK statistics for minors committing suicide over being unable to transition, I’ll be delighted to see it. Because there aren’t any.

TammyswansonTwo · 06/11/2017 09:25

Hmm. Potentially suicidal in their teens, or suicidal for the rest of their life because they have no sex drive, their relationships all wither and die, lose the ability to have kids, their health goes down the toilet, can't maintain a job due to illness, can't care for their kids even if they can have them, and they have the bones of an 80 year old at 35.

Awesome.

Nickynackynoodle · 06/11/2017 09:32

mirime AFAI can see, it’s juvenile TRAs who won’t stick their necks out officially but will harass people on social media for saying “FGM” and the like. There’s far worse than what I’ve attached... ETRA 3.0 (exposing trans) is a good source for this sort of bollocks.

To be shocked at the sheer amount of hatred and ignorance about transpeople on mumsnet
Ereshkigal · 06/11/2017 09:40

I see this stuff all the time but even I am boggling at the idea that saying biological sex is at all relevant to FGM is "disingenuous and sealioning".

Yes man and male do mean the same thing, you idiot. But not the way you think.

TammyswansonTwo · 06/11/2017 09:58

Christ on a bike, that's ridiculous. Who's doing the erasing? Not FGM campaigners, that's for sure

Wineandworkout · 06/11/2017 10:00

YANBU. I have noticed this too. Haven't come across any outright hatred but plenty of eye rolling type posts.

Sentimentallentil · 06/11/2017 10:02

So I’ve just read a justification of how women can have penises.

Apparently sex and gender are different but gender is the most important thing, gender is what you choose so if you choose the gender of woman then your penis is female because you couldn’t help it that you were assigned a sex different to your gender and now you’ve chosen to be a woman then your sex changes too.

What the fuck? That’s not how a social construct works, just because it’s constructed doesn’t mean you can opt out of it or just choose it.
I haven’t chosen the female gender, society constructed it around my genitals.

Nickynackynoodle · 06/11/2017 10:04

@Wineandworkout

Haven't come across any outright hatred but plenty of eye rolling type posts

Sorry, you're saying that rolling your eyes at something is a hate crime?

I don't think the internet is the place for you...

Rebeccaslicker · 06/11/2017 10:04

I don't "hate" trans people at all.

I do worry a lot about what the rampant activism will do to women's rights and the safety of people like my DD to compete in sports or even get changed to play them. Sorry, but this worries me a lot more than a very small minority.

I would support anyone's right to live as they choose. But if that includes telling women how to be a woman; if it includes making women allow men into their safe spaces - no, sorry. Instal extra changing and toilet areas for those who haven't transitioned yet; arrange a third category of sports for those who have male biological advantages but want to compete as a woman - yes.