Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To be shocked at the sheer amount of hatred and ignorance about transpeople on mumsnet

739 replies

Curiositykilledthecat113 · 04/11/2017 22:22

Specifically transwomen, according to the majority of mumsnet, all transwomen want to rape biological women, “steal their womanhood” and all sorts of other ridiculous, offensive statements without any factual backing.

So why is Mumsnet so intolerant and ignorant towards transgender people?

OP posts:
StickThatInYourPipe · 05/11/2017 11:04

PencilsInSpace

I have been asking this question for ages! Must be our shared love of housework and glitter Hmm

AssignedPerfectAtBirth · 05/11/2017 11:09

So so so sick of all this. Actual WOMEN coming on shouting 'Bigot' at women without possessing a glimmer of logic, so they can be popular with males. It's pathetic, it's traitorous, it's weak and it's cowardly

noeffingidea · 05/11/2017 11:10

I always think it's quite funny when people say Mumsnet is transphobic and out of line with the rest of society on this issue. Actually there are plenty of spaces on the internet where it's perfectly acceptable to be gender critical. I can think of a couple of forums where no one even uses the 'preferred pronouns'. There is zero pressure to refer to Caitlyn Jenner as female (just to give a well known example).
And check out comments on news sites, even the guardian is beginning to allow gender critical comments, and comments supporting biological facts, to stand.

PowderGreen · 05/11/2017 11:11

The OP seems under the illusion that males wearing makeup and dresses as the basis for claiming woman (oh right, their 'feelings' associated with such garb) is inoffensive to women.

The very basis of trans throws a spanner into women's rights. And yet, women who critique this offensive "identity" are deemed harmful? I think you need to look at the base proposition of what trans "is".

Nobody but nobody has every intimated that trans be considered less of humans or that they should have fewer opportunities or rights. That is the exaggeration this movement relies upon and misogyny guarantees the lie remains. Women are speaking out, and so they should, about how having India Willoughby representing women's rights and harassment is just wrong wrong wrong on every level.

Again, I am sympathetic to any and all psychological illness and conditions which GID is classified as the latter. But this condition does not mean that society must bend to mirror these individuals' desires. I am sorry you are offended, but 51% of the population is more direly offended.

Ereshkigal · 05/11/2017 11:22

I hereby dismiss you as a goady fucker.

YY. If it weren't for the lurkers, I wouldn't bother.

HornyTortoise · 05/11/2017 11:24

YABU and purposely goady tbh. Noone thinks all transwomen want to rape women and if thats what you have taken from the trans threads, there is not any point in trying to explain tbh, though it looks like many have tried already (am still on the first page, sorry didn't RTFT)

Just mumsnet (as a collective) cares more about womens rights than the 'rest of the internet' and are much more switched on and many on here have had experience of lesbian friends being pressured to shag 'female penises' and such. And we can read evidence about it too. There was a report about how a disproportionate amount of 'transwomen' are sex offenders in prisons and are asking to be moved in with the females. And its happening. Male rapists are in female prisons currently. This doesn't bother you at all?

Sorry for caring about women and girls.

I also care about transpeople, and think they should obviously not be discriminated against. Just I do not count not agreeing that a man is a woman as discrimination. I believe in biology.

Ereshkigal · 05/11/2017 11:25

AT LAST. The nasty, bigoted or entirely dismissive replies to you post

Yes, because the OP's posts are so informed and well-reasoned Hmm

CamilleDesmoulins · 05/11/2017 11:25

As a murder, I am grateful that you bother. Pages and pages of reasoned responses have really made me think.

CamilleDesmoulins · 05/11/2017 11:26

I am a lurker not a murderer. Just to reassure you.

Ereshkigal · 05/11/2017 11:31
Grin
MyPuppyIsADick · 05/11/2017 11:34

I’m embarrassed for you OP - you’ve been called out by both women and transwomen on this thread, displayed complete ignorance of current politics and mind blowing arrogance telling other posters they’re lying because you know what’s inside their heads and yet you still stubbornly refuse to listen and engage with reason. Do yourself a favour and leave it otherwise you risk coming across as even more of a complete idiot 🤦🏻‍♀️

Datun · 05/11/2017 11:39

ALittleBitOfButter

In other news thousands of lurkers hit peak trans after finally finding out what OP's actual definition of transphobia is.

And this is why we not allowed to talk about it. Because as soon as you do, particularly with someone who disagrees, it all becomes a lot clearer to everyone else.

There is a very good reason why transactivists’ hashtag is #NoDebate. Why they consistently no platform and censor women with rape threats. Why they target venues to stop talks being held. Why they bombard the BBC to stop programmes being shown.

They cannot allow talk about it, because it is built on a house of cards.

OP, you are woefully uninformed about the proposed bill. Legally changing you sex will become merely an administrative exercise. I have posted a form upthread which is currently being used in other countries with the same law.

The current criteria is you must be over 18, have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and have lived as a woman for two years.

The proposed changes would eliminate all three. They also want to change the protected characteristic of gender reassignment to gender identity.

“I am a woman because I say I am”.

And that’s it.

And if anyone thinks that can’t possibly be true. I can promise you it is.

It’s that stupid.

stealtheatingtunnocks · 05/11/2017 11:40

What interests me is how quickly trans issues have become a mainstream focus in the media and politics.

Can't help think that it's parallel to the gay marriage campaign in Ireland which was passed with great celebration - whilst women's rights to reproductive healthcare remain unresolved.

Someone said at that time "it's middle class men who are campaigning for gay marriage - no one will listen to the women"

Feels the same with the trans issues to me - the focus is almost entirely on what transwomen want, access to my toilet, my refuge, my sport. I don't see anything about what transmen want - and I see no forum (apart from this one) where I can say "women are not men - "feel" how you want, dress how you want, act how you want (within the law) - but, FUCK RIGHT OFF with saying that wearing heels and a sideways smirk makes you a woman like me!

You have no idea.

BertrandRussell · 05/11/2017 11:44

"What interests me is how quickly trans issues have become a mainstream focus in the media and politics."
What men want men get. Women have been fighting for bloody decades to get "Ms" as an option on forms. It's taken men about 5 years to completely redefine the word "woman".

Datun · 05/11/2017 11:45

OP, if you think gender dysphoria is a mental illness, I’m afraid that’s transphobic. (Even though it officially is).

Also, I’m not sure how you think allowing mentally ill men access to women and girls when they are at their most vulnerable or in a state of undress, is helping your argument.

Ereshkigal · 05/11/2017 11:47

OP, you are woefully uninformed about the proposed bill. Legally changing you sex will become merely an administrative exercise. I have posted a form upthread which is currently being used in other countries with the same law.

Great post Datun. I would also just add that the expectation of many transactivists is that this will also apply to "non binary" and "genderfluid" people. So a person can be a man one day and a woman the next. This is a thing. And I have not one single doubt that it will end all sex based protection for women if it is permitted to that extent.

HidingBehindTheWallpaper · 05/11/2017 11:50

So so so sick of all this. Actual WOMEN coming on shouting 'Bigot' at women without possessing a glimmer of logic, so they can be popular with males. It's pathetic, it's traitorous, it's weak and it's cowardly

What? To be popular with men? What men?

muttmad · 05/11/2017 11:53

I’ve recently joined MN and I was at first shocked to see the TRans threads but mainly because logical things were being said that in day to day life are never expressed due to fear of being labelled prejudiced.
I’m not a feminist, but I agree with so much that has been said in these threads, I’m not against men/women dressing and living how they wish but women’s safe spaces should remain just that. I’m also worried about the fairly recent trend of using hormones on our confused children that may lead to long term problems.
I’m especially worried about the self identification which would give men with a hidden agenda access to some of our most vulnerable woman and children.
None of my reason make me prejudice or transphobic, I’m just generally concerned.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 05/11/2017 11:54

Can i just point out that someone who repeatedly uses the phrase 'you lot' isnt really interested in what 'you lot' think or feel

AssignedPerfectAtBirth · 05/11/2017 11:55

The ones who like to wear dresses

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 05/11/2017 12:02

I was a bit worried camille Grin

Bucketsandspoons · 05/11/2017 14:25

Thank you for giving examples of comments you find offensive, OP. That helps.

“Therefore women might want to have their private spaces such as toilets limited to well..women. You know. People with vaginas.” It’s intolerant,

I respect that you believe that the group 'women' include biological females and people who are biologically male and self identify as women. So I understand that you don't agree that the word 'woman' should mean 'people with vaginas' as this excludes.

My point of view isn't based on hate or suspicion or intolerance, it's based on several concerns.

  • What do we call biological females if the word 'woman' no longer specifically means them? This is a massive and unilateral redefinition of language and identity.
  • Biological women cannot identify out of their biology, and their disadvantage is biological , ie sex based not gender based. Please see the awful case of the transman raped in a London taxi who sobbed to the police 'but I kept telling him I was a man'. A ten year old girl being forcibly taken to Africa for FMG cannot identify her way out of that fate. (I know, mentioning and campaigning against FMG is thought by some to be highly transphobic too.) It is different for biological women and ignoring that helps no one.
  • What impact is this going to have if the biological aspects of being an adult female like periods, pregnancy, abortion, rape, are no longer allowed to be called women's issues or campaigned for as women's rights, or as is already happening not allowed to be talked about in women's groups as 'triggering' for the women present who were born with male biology? Throughout history women have fought for the right to talk about these things, meet about these things as a group, and to create resources for them. If the GRB goes through, women will not be allowed to meet outside of the presence and supervision of men . The real impact of accomodating inclusiveness needs to be looked at seriously here, and weighed up. Are there no other, better ways and middle ground?

“Have seen people say they don’t believe a man with a penis is a woman just because he says so.”

Again, I respect that to you, self definition means someone is what they say they are. I respectfully disagree. Gender identity is a spectrum and something everyone should be free to express in their own way without limitation or discrimination. Biological sex is a fixed, factual reality and I believe in science coming before validation of feelings. Not to be mean or difficult, but because the ramifications are serious and immense. Transracial is already under discussion (people who identify as black who are white), transdisabled (people wanting limbs removed or to enact disability because they feel disabled in an able body) -- all cases where it is argued that people are appropriating the experience, language and culture of something they cannot possibly truly understand. Are you aware of Stephonknee Walscht, who is biologically an adult male in his 50s who identifies as a six year old girl and has given interviews stating enjoyment being sodomised by the man who within her identity is her father? Where are the limits of self identification, and where does self expression become self indulgence, particularly where it crosses over into sexual expression as it does for many autogynephilic men? In my mind the right of anyone to wave their fist around ends at someone else's nose.

“Have seen people disagreeing with the transing of children.” In most cases I would be inclined to agree with you but for example have you seen the transchild Jazz, can you deny that she sees herself and will continue to see herself as a female?

I agree she sees herself as female and is fully entitled to see herself in any way she chooses. That may or may not change as she gets older. But what has been done to Jazz Jennings is effectively a chemical castration. The poor child will never experience any sex drive of any kind, she is effectively a modern eunuch. I think there is serious conversation to be had here around child safeguarding.

“Create a bloody transwoman category if you must but leave us be.” another example of intolerance “we don’t want your kind here” in other words.

An alternative view is people are frustrated and angered by the appropriation of their spaces, language, refiguring and denigrating womanhood to be performing femininity in ways most biological women don't, and constantly seeing online material about demands to be centred in all womens issues alongside very frequent statements such as 'punch a terf', 'rape a terf' 'cis scum' and many other lovely inclusive language.

Inclusion is surely a two way street with responsibilities on both sides. Otherwise it can feel like an expectation that often falls on women, that whoever has a vagina will meet all the needs of the others and take responsibility for them. That's an experience of oppression (which means the demand of labour in some form) that most women have experienced.

DayManChampionOfTheSun · 05/11/2017 14:28

There is a real conversation needed to be had on this subject. Your examples just prove that women are not allowed or concern to have an opinion without being called a bigot.

God forbid I ever go for an intimate examination and want the choice to have a biological woman to be the Dr doing the procedure. Confused

Ereshkigal · 05/11/2017 14:29

Great post Buckets. I'll be interested to read the OP's considered response.

DayManChampionOfTheSun · 05/11/2017 14:29

**to have an opinion or concern that should be!