To be shocked at the sheer amount of hatred and ignorance about transpeople on mumsnet

[Curiositykilledthecat113]

Specifically transwomen, according to the majority of mumsnet, all transwomen want to rape biological women, “steal their womanhood” and all sorts of other ridiculous, offensive statements without any factual backing.

So why is Mumsnet so intolerant and ignorant towards transgender people?

I find threads like this really difficult to read and am posting this to be visible rather than get into a debate on the subject.

All posts like this achieve is make you look like you can't defend your views and are a bit ignorant. That's how you are "visible". And yes that applies to a lot of uninformed people.

Why not have the courage of your convictions and say what you don't agree with rather than vaguely smearing people as bigoted?

treaclesoda So you support muslims who also get a lot of extremists who gang rape and oppress women but you don’t support trans rights because of a small amount of extremists who don’t represent real trans people?

Jazz is a mentally ill child whose narcissistic and abusive parents and medical team have convinced him that, rather than being a gay male, he's actually a female, and he's now going to have to suffer the consequences of that for the rest of his life. Of course he's going to have to claim he sees himself as a woman, because 'effeminate-looking man with the genitals of a pre-pubescent male child' is hardly a shining advertisement for transing children, is it?

Not one of those things you highlighted is transphobic though.

No matter how much surgery or hormones someone has they can’t actually change biological sex, and saying that is not hate speech it’s just stating fact.

And for gods sake nobody thinks that trans women want to go into the toilets to harm women, people are saying if all you have to say to go into a female space is ‘I am female’ then that opens the doors for men who do want to harm women.

What "trans rights" do you think we should be expected to support exactly, OP? All their demands to the detriment of ourselves?

Curiositykilledthecat113

None of those comments are transphobic, ffs. They’re perfectly legitimate concerns.

If you’re taking exception to women calling themselves people with vaginas, I suggest you take a look at what is acceptable language.

The word woman is incredibly loaded. Because it now includes men, which is another word that is incredibly loaded. So you have to be specific. This is not us promoting language difficulties.

The words woman and men are themselves are transphonic unless you are a little more specific.

"I'd certainly listen to them, I don't hate transpeople, I don't wish any harm on them. But I don't believe that a man's view of what it's like to be a woman corresponds in any way with what it's actually like to be a woman.”

How is this transphobic OP?

OP you seem to be suggesting that women who understand biology and appreciate necessary sex based protections are hateful. Sorry if I've misunderstood.

Isaac thank you for sharing your daughter’s story. I’m sorry she has gone through this.
It’s interesting and upsetting to hear how this is effecting young people.

Curry. I think I love you. Can I buy you a glass of 🍷?

So the OP's position boils down to: women, "shut up." Even in a majority female space oriented to talking about our specific biology and needs like Mumsnet.

No, curiosity I don't support Muslims who oppress and rape women.

I support the right of 'ordinary' Muslims to live their life without being subjected to violence and intimidation. I do not, for example, support Muslims insisting that the laws of the UK are changed to suit their belief system.

Similarly I support the right of any man to dress as a woman if he chooses, to change his name if he chooses. To seek help for gender dysphoria, to have surgery if he wishes. And to not be subjected to violence or intimidation because of that. What I don't support is the changing of UK law so that any man can tick a box on a form and say he is a woman. And to insist that if I say such a person with a male body is actually not a woman, that I am guilty a hate crime.

To answer the OP: yes, you are being unreasonable.

MNHQ are quick to shut down posts which include hate speech or break their terms of use.

What makes MN very unusual is that they permit discussion of the impact on women of trans-related legislation and societal rule-changes. If you are used to a world where women are forced by biological men to shut up and accept their safety being compromised, then it's not surprising that you regard women's insistence on retaining their sex-based rights as ignorant.

If there’s a trans woman in female spaces I will have no reservations in telling them to leave ” this isn’t just prejudice this is bordering on planning discrimination, there seems to be an assumption here (without factual backing) that trans people come into womens bathrooms simply to harm women.

No, OP. The poster is entitled to not want to share intimate female spaces with males. To have her boundaries respected. It doesn't mean she thinks all TW are rapists.

people who hold this view hate transgender people and it’s glaringly obvious “limited to women, people with vaginas” I’m not sure how much clearler the intolerance can be here.

So the idea of defining a woman as a person with a vagina is transphobic?
Please tell me what your definition of a woman is?

I support the right of any man to dress as a woman if he chooses, to change his name if he chooses. To seek help for gender dysphoria, to have surgery if he wishes. And to not be subjected to violence or intimidation because of that. What I don't support is the changing of UK law so that any man can tick a box on a form and say he is a woman. And to insist that if I say such a person with a male body is actually not a woman, that I am guilty a hate crime

This. 100x this. Completely and utterly this.
I’m going to get this printed on a fucking tea towel.

but for example have you seen the transchild Jazz, can you deny that she sees herself and will continue to see herself as a female?

Jazz may well see herself as female, but as a result of her being transed as a child she will never be able to have successful surgery. Her genitals are too small to be made into a passable vagina, she will never experience an orgasm, she will never have biological children, she is already in mental turmoil over this and I see a very unhappy future for her. She is the poster child against the transing of children and the reason that many adults/parents/people of both sexes reached ‘peak trans’

I am not remotely ill-informed on the subject and I do know several transwomen.

I don't remotely believe that they are women. It's not transphobia it's that I know they are biological men.

You make no sense, OP. You say it would be OK to have bathrooms (as if toilets were the main issue!) based on biological sex yet at the same time it's 'intolerant' to say 'women' means people with vaginas. Do you understand what biological sex is?

I’m not sure how much clearler the intolerance can be here.

Well you'll have to help us out then because this is as clear as mud.

for example have you seen the transchild Jazz, can you deny that she sees herself and will continue to see herself as a female?

Yes, most of us are fully aware of what has been done to that poor child.

“Create a bloody transwoman category if you must but leave us be.” another example of intolerance “we don’t want your kind here” in other words.

Are you advocating for a complete end to all sex segregated spaces? Leaving aside trans people for a moment, are we allowed to say we don't want men in female spaces? Is that 'intolerant' too? If you are advocating for completely unisex everything that is at least consistent but I do think you should be honest about that. I can't see that idea being very popular at all.

there seems to be an assumption here (without factual backing) that trans people come into womens bathrooms simply to harm women.

The law is about to be changed so that any man can ID as a woman and enter female spaces at will. There seems to be an assumption here (without factual backing) that no men (trans identifying or not) would exploit this to harm women.

A lot of these people have never even met a transwoman to ask them themselves and base their opinions solely off the opinions of others.

I've met plenty of trans people thanks. Most are just ordinary people, some are downright dangerous. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if every trans person was as lovely and harmless as a fluffy kitten because THE LAW IS ABOUT TO BE CHANGED IN WAYS THAT HARM WOMEN and women have a right to discuss that without being shut down or beaten up.

Statements of biological fact are not hate speech. Many sex-based rights and protections exist because of the dangers women face as a result of our biology. It is not transphobic to recognise that.

'To the same extent as it was legitimate for any other incompatible groups under Equalities legislation. So when a large group (all Jews, Christians and Muslims) are compelled to either abandon their religious principles or remove themselves from some forms of public life (provision of goods and services) van in areas where there is a plentiful and diverse supply if said goods and services; then of course it follows that one group has to put up with change because it impinges on another.'

But being a woman is not the same as having a religious belief. It is biological reality vs a matter of faith. The Equalities act makes it illegal for someone with a religious belief to use that belief to discriminate on the grounds of sex, sexuality, ethnicity or disability, because belief does not come before actual innate characteristics. The proposed change to the laws about gender identity are the polar opposite. They will mean that someone's belief has more importance than another person's' innate biology.

I support the right of any man to dress as a woman if he chooses, to change his name if he chooses. To seek help for gender dysphoria, to have surgery if he wishes. And to not be subjected to violence or intimidation because of that. What I don't support is the changing of UK law so that any man can tick a box on a form and say he is a woman. And to insist that if I say such a person with a male body is actually not a woman, that I am guilty a hate crime

Yes, yes, fucking yes. Excellent post.

Yanbu. I suspect you're a transwoman looking to goad MNetters.

From p7 Sagamartha:

Not really. Not when people make comments about transwomen like to do this, transwomen think that....

That is stereotyping.

🙄 Jeez. The level of eye-rolling this prompted was quite painful. Transwomen stereotype women all the fucking time and present an incredibly narrow view of women’s rich, complex and varied life experiences. Projection much?

I support the right of any man to dress as a woman if he chooses, to change his name if he chooses. To seek help for gender dysphoria, to have surgery if he wishes. And to not be subjected to violence or intimidation because of that. What I don't support is the changing of UK law so that any man can tick a box on a form and say he is a woman. And to insist that if I say such a person with a male body is actually not a woman, that I am guilty a hate crime

I may just repost this every single time a “you’re all transphobic” thread comes up.
It’s what I and the vast majority of women think. And it’s what any decent human being should believe!