to think "Breastfeed if you can" would be a better message

[ringle]

... than "Breast is best".

I say this having start skimmed yet another thread where the OP was driven to post natal depression because of difficulties breast feeding.

PND is far more damaging to babies than formula.

BF if you want. FF if you want. It's a personal, individual choice and the way the NHS try to force BF down your throat makes me want to punch someone.

^^THIS ☺️

The worst part after I had my baby was the 'breastfeeding expert' at the hospital. This was only earlier this year too, she accused me of starving my baby when in fact I'd perservered so hard, fought feeling like I hated life, gone through 2 days of labour and was recovering from a c section. We did manage in the end, even though my baby had a severe tongue tie which made it so bloody painful. The best person to help me while I was in the hospital was my sister who had BF my niece.

I still hate that woman, actually hate her, I wish I'd fed back to the hospital as the MWs were amazing yet this woman knocked me down so badly, it took me such a long time to feel I'd climbed my way back up, I'd always prided myself on being a strong person but she just took that away. We moved to a combi feed not long after and kept that going for almost 6 months and now it's just FF as we are weaning.

I feel terrible now that pre-baby I was breast is best. Fed is best.

I BLOODY LOVE FORMULA - it saved my sanity and it saved me from pain.

I think the decision to bf is NOT one of the most important aspects of parenting and it plays an outsized role in public health campaigning. Reading, singing and talking to your baby are much more significant and much less discussed.

However the idea that Western women can no longer physically bf is ludicrous. In the US 80 percent of women bf and at 6 months almost 50 percent are still breast feeding despite the fact that maternity leave is typically 6 weeks only and at most 3 months long.

There are definitely women who can't bf (I'm friends with someone who tried very hard) but the vast majority can with the right medical and social support

Fed is best is far worse. Fed isn't best, fed is the bare minimum. Mashing up rusks into a 10 week old's bottle is feeding them but it's not best.

I dont agree I think it's lack of support and knowledge thats the problem. I wanted to know which was best and believe everyone should have the information to know what's best. I think HV doctors etc should be more supportive and notice signs of PND. Everybody deserves to know the truth/what's best then make there own decision from there. I do think formula shouldn't be a hush hush dirty secret though like it was with my experience.

What and how a baby is fed while weaning and beyond and the habits that are formed during early childhood will have far more of an impact on their life than the negligible individual benefit they're likely to get from breastfeeding. Why isn't that given as much prominence and focus? Why isn't there a "veg is best" campaign?

Just finished reading the thread. The best evidence regarding breast feeding is that at a population level it reduces incidences of respirory and gut infections. The evidence for this is strong including in Western countries. Most other claims are inconclusive.

Breast is best but it's not hugely better when you step back and look at it. I breast fed for 9 months because once it's established its easier and cheaper and a great way to comfort your baby but in the grand scheme of things isn't nearly as important as less promoted parenting decisions that have much longer term benefits.

Why BF rates are so low in the UK is a difficult question. While on maternity leave of the 20 or so mums I got to know only two didn't breast feed. However where I live in London breastfeeding is very common. I think it being normal to see women breastfeeding makes it socially easier and doesn't make women afraid to leave the house etc which in itself must make it easier to succeed. Also, for me, seeing others persevering in the early weeks motivated me to push through. We all suffered from hurt nipples at various points, 3 got mastitis and 3 of us got nipple thrush as well. However after those initial trying early weeks it did become very easy.

Why isn't veg is best on all red and processed meat packets?

Why isn't fruit is best on anything containing sugar?

Oh I know,because nearly everybody eats the above and wouldn't like to be patronised. It's ok to patronise vulnerable women though over something that has far less impact on a child's life.

Totally crazy.

Why not oats and eggs are better than sugary cereal?

Why not water is better than fruit juices?

Why not reading and exercise are better on X boxes,phones and tablet?

Why not talking to your child is better on phones?

Another thought I had was lumping formula in with ‘not best’ choices ends up with some mums feeding rusk at 6 weeks because sensible options that aren’t breastmilk are not being communicated clearly in fear of promoting formula. The formula feeding advice I received was overly complicated and wasn’t explained at all. This leads to people just doing what they think is best or getting advice from family members etc so all that new data around infant feeding is disregarded because it isn’t made accessible. So the breast feeding message is made simple to the point of patronising and misses out key information in fear of putting people off and then formula feeding advice is overly complex, wordy, and unsupported in intent to make breastfeeding the easier choice but in reality, this ends up with people formula feeding incorrectly and this results in babies in hospital with infections and diarrhoea (I cannot see how sterile formula made up correctly in sterile bottles can contain any bugs).

formula feeding advice is overly complex, wordy, and unsupported in intent to make breastfeeding the easier choice but in reality, this ends up with people formula feeding incorrectly and this results in babies in hospital with infections and diarrhoea (I cannot see how sterile formula made up correctly in sterile bottles can contain any bugs).

Honestly as someone who has never made a formula bottle, I see threads on MN about how to make them safely and it gives me a headache! I have friends who FF who panic about clean water on airplanes for long-haul trips, or when they turn up at the shop and the only brand their baby can digest is unexpectedly sold out. When I was a kid I vividly remember my uncle having to venture out in a terrible snowstorm because he my aunt and baby cousin had come over and ended up stranded at our house without enough formula to last the duration.

BF once I got over the initial difficulties (latch, sore nipples) was absurdly easy. And even safe guidelines for expressed milk are more straightforward.

I don't think it's the NHS purposely trying to make FF complicated. I think it simply is more complicated than BF.

It might be a little more inconvenient but formula feeding was infinitely easier for me with my prem twins, traumatic birth and no milk.

If you find breastfeeding easy its probably no surprise that you regard it as the easy choice. It shouldn't take a great leap of imagination to work out that bf isn't always easy. Formula feeding isn't difficult. But then the nurses in NICU made sure i knew how to make a bottle as per the latest guidelines. I doubt i would have got that bit of help on a post natal ward. What they couldnt do was talk to me about what bottles were best, what formula to buy or even what the differences were between different types. Nor were they allowed to point me in the direction of any resources. I think they wanted to, having seen what i had been through to get to that point but because the NHS isn't allowed to "promote" formula, i was entirely on my own. It felt like i was being punished in a way, for giving up on trying to breastfeed.

Formula powder is not sterile.

That's why it needs to be scalded.

And scalding does not sterilise it either. It will reduce pathogens significantly but there will be enough left to multiply in favourable conditions- ie a bottle of milk left at room temperature or even the fridge.

I have to say that my midwife was excellent. In the early days I was struggling with the pain and told her that I was dreading every feed and was avoiding holding him to stop him smelling my milk and wanting fed again.

She just told me to stop, and to enjoy my baby.

The freedom and relief actually gave me the confidence to try a ‘just one more feed’ approach supplemented by a little formula here and there when i really didn’t want to. Knowing that I could stop at any time made it seem less daunting and oppressive. Little by little it stopped hurting and i carried on longer than i expected to

alittlepot
"If you find breastfeeding easy it's probably no surprise that you regard it as the easy choice"

One of the issues that many of us have raised is that breastfeeding is just not easy, at all, in the first 6 weeks or so. It is painful, time consuming, and tying. This is not made clear enough in any official literature I have seen, so when new mum's try it and find it time consuming, painful and tying they think they must be doing something wrong, in many cases, particularly where there is no family culture to support and explain - your own Mum, or a sister, for example.

Everyone I know who breastfed found it incredibly hard for the first few weeks. Heck, I did it 4 times and those first weeks of cracked nipples and all evening feeding sessions were just as agony with my 4th child as my first. However, most people do find it suddenly gets easier, around 6 weeks or do, and after that it us hugely more convenient than formula.

There's nothing wrong with formula. But virtually no one finds breastfeeding a newborn easy, and that isn't clear enough - or, that it will get easier, quite soon.

"I doubt i would have got that bit of help on a post natal ward. What they couldnt do was talk to me about what bottles were best, what formula to buy or even what the differences were between different types. Nor were they allowed to point me in the direction of any resources."

1. Staff ARE 'allowed' to direct you towards resources on bottle-feeding, In fact they're obligated to. If a midwife tells you she can't give you information about making up bottles and how to formula feed after your baby is born then she is simply not doing her job, and I'd suggest that any parent who is told 'we can't help you with bottle-feeding' AFTER their baby is born make a formal complaint.

1. Staff aren't allowed to demonstrate how to make up a bottle to parents in a group before their baby is born. This is because of research showing that this information may not be retained accurately and result in a situation where parents believe they know how to make up a bottle safely when in fact they need to be shown one to one after the birth of their baby. It's also undermining of women's confidence in their ability to breastfeed to make how to prepare bottles a part of routine antenatal preparation for having a baby

1. "What they couldnt do was talk to me about what bottles were best, what formula to buy or even what the differences were between different types."

They can't tell you because they're not allowed to give non-evidence based information about formula and bottle-feeding equipment, and there is no research which shows which brands of bottle or formula are safest or best tolerated by babies. However, any midwife worth her salt should direct those mothers who ask to information on NHS Choices which explains clearly what formula is suitable for newborns. : www.nhs.uk/Conditions/pregnancy-and-baby/Pages/types-of-infant-formula.aspx

"I have to say that my midwife was excellent. In the early days I was struggling with the pain and told her that I was dreading every feed and was avoiding holding him to stop him smelling my milk and wanting fed again.

She just told me to stop, and to enjoy my baby."

Well luckily for you you continued to breastfeed and her advice made you feel less pressured.

The likelihood is that for many other mothers her advice would have led to them stopping breastfeeding before they'd intended to. Unnecessarily.

I think telling a mother who is struggling with breastfeeding to stop instead of referring her to an expert to try and resolve her breastfeeding difficulties is seriously negligent.

I think some midwives do this because their priority is winning a popularity contest and not revealing that they don't have the skills necessary to do their job properly.

Alittlepotofrosie I said after the initial difficulties BF was easy. The first 3-4 weeks was sore and bleeding nipples, engorgement, leaking, and no sleep. But after that it clicked.

The problem is most women don’t know that it’s hard at the start and quit because they assume something is wrong. It drives me mad when you read in books “If BF is done properly it shouldn’t hurt.” Nonsense. Unless you have nipples of steel it HURTS at the start.

However if you can get over that hurdle - and I fully appreciate that some women cannot or do not want to - BF typically becomes very easy.

Really? Most women don’t know it hurts at the start? I agree that all the literature and advice says, ‘do it right and it doesn’t hurt’ but I’ve honestly never known a woman who isn’t aware that A) It hurts at the start. B) You don’t look to Nestle for feeding advice and C) Breast milk is better nutritionaly speaking than formula.

I know there are probably a few out there but most mums are pretty bright, switched on and have done their research.

While I’m here, I’d like to ask a question to mums that have experience of expressing if I may. At toddler group this morning my friends and I were having a chat about advice regarding expressing. One mum had been told ‘express one side while your baby feeds on the other to increase production’ another mum was told ‘don’t express as you’ll empty your boob and waste the milk’

Sorry to ask here but as so many experienced mums are already reading this I thought I’d get more advice than starting my own thread. Plus it’s another example of contradictory advice.

I think the most important thing people need to know is 'breast is best but very hard work and often incredibly painful'. How's that for a strap line.

Actually, this is a big part of the issue. Women's psychologies are different. What influences one woman to start bf or continue is not the same as what will influence another.

I have a similar example to the one quoted above. I struggled at the start and at my six week check I mentioned to the GP that I was finding BF tough. She told me that I'd already given DS a good start and not to worry about quitting.

That was exactly what motivated me to continue (because I'm a contrary fucker).

And DS was bf for 11 months. Sometimes people need 'permission' to stop and that's exactly what takes the pressure off and allows them to continue. Or it might mean that the guilt is diffused and PND avoided.

The NHS messaging and approach is very blunt. It's not particularly effective for some women. It has unintended consequences for others (guilt and depression).

I'm inclined to think they might be better off taking emphasis off the messaging (which I believe has gotten through) and putting whatever money they have into appropriate suuport.

Street, hi my name is indubiousbattle. There now you've met someone who didn't know it would hurt. I read all of the nhs literature I was given and it all said that it might be a bit uncomfortable but not nearly as painful as it was. Ds was tongue tied and it was agony, my nipples were bleeding within 4 days. I like to think I'm pretty bright and switched on but the literature from my mw genuinely led me to believe that bf was easy and the things I needed to look out for were mastitis and thrush. My sister didn't say how much it hurt 'because she didn't want to scare me'.

Wrt expression, some women find they have a let down in both breast at the same time, so if you feed your baby from one breast and pump from the other you might get a better yield in a shorter amount of time. I know with my dd when I had a let down in one boob I could feel a rush of milk from the other one, it went away after a few months though. You can't 'empty' a boob, think if it more like a factory than a warehouse. They respond to milk removal by making more milk so you can increase your supply by pumping (although just feeding is better).

The whole bf/ff debate drives me mad.

No need for ‘messages’ or slogans.

Before birth the NHS should provide a very simple fact sheet containing the pros and cons of both.

Advice on how to get started with bf, what to expect, and good resources/phone numbers for support etc.

Some guidance on safely preparing formula with no biases towards any brands or products and bloody well leave women to make their own choices without pressurising or guilt tripping them.

Thank you indubious. Well I’ve learned 2 things in one post thanks!

I am expecting baby number 4 (shock surprise baby) post major breast reduction surgery. I can’t breast feed. So little advice on expressing out there for me. Nobody really knows as the lactation consultants only know about women with normal boobs so I’m a bit in the dark. Thank you 😊

I'm pregnant with #4 and have bleeding and split nipples every time for about 10 days until they suddenly heal and are fine. It's toe curling and so painful it must affect my supply. So total and utter agony but for some reason I do it anyway. My sister has just had her first and has the same issue (no tongue ties for any of the 4 babies). Big splits and bleeding, pure agony. She's just about coping with shields. Id be supportive of her ff as I hate to see her going through this, I know it well.

So I often look in envy at how easy those first weeks could be with ff but am ok with my own choice to bf despite how hard it is. I think ff is a perfectly valid choice in the face of that.

I also didn't know it would hurt. In fact I was told it wouldn't if I was doing it 'right'
by my NCT counsellor.

I'm still really pissed at that advice as I remember those early days sat on the sofa, latching and unlatching DS (who was going steadily ballistic) to get it 'right'.