Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think "Breastfeed if you can" would be a better message

321 replies

ringle · 03/11/2017 14:28

... than "Breast is best".

I say this having start skimmed yet another thread where the OP was driven to post natal depression because of difficulties breast feeding.

PND is far more damaging to babies than formula.

OP posts:
Anon8604 · 06/11/2017 01:35

My PND is not so much about the external pressure to bf, rather the feeling that I'm no special person to him (didn't push him out, I give him bottles everyone else can give).

You’re his mum, the most special person in the world to him. How he was born or how he is fed doesn’t change that one bit.

I’m sorry you had such rubbish treatment in hospital and I hope your appointment today is helpful and you begin to get the support you need to feel better.

HandbagKrabby · 06/11/2017 07:52

What do you want women to do? Many women find ebf difficult to the point of impossible. Formula has presumably prevented countless deaths as there is something to feed babies that isn’t evaporated milk or bread and water etc that is not safe. Unless your baby has an allergy they will be fine on properly prepared formula and if they do have an allergy then there’s specific formula for that too.

What nestle did in Africa was appalling, I don’t think anyone who uses formula would agree with their actions. It’s a massive guilt trip to imply women in the U.K. who ff babies are somehow indirectly supporting the actions of a company 30 years ago in a different continent.

If every single woman in this country ebf there would be something else we do/ don’t do regarding pregnancy, birth and newborns that society would be moaning about women not doing right. It’s not really about bf imo.

streetlife70s · 06/11/2017 08:28

I think it’s bloody patronising to think women who choose / have to formula feed have done so because of formula marketing actually.

Anon8604 · 06/11/2017 09:01

I think it’s bloody patronising to think women who choose / have to formula feed have done so because of formula marketing actually.

Advertising works. If it didn’t companies wouldn’t have multi-million pound marketing budgets. I don’t think it’s patronising to acknowledge that almost all of us are influenced by marketing to a greater or lesser extent.

There’s also some evidence that formula marketing undermines women’s confidence in their ability to breastfeed. For example this study: onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/birt.12044/full

haveagobletofblood · 06/11/2017 09:23

When I was struggling to produce milk and get baby to latch everyone in the country could have shouted breast is best as loud as they could but it wouldn't have got breastfeeding started. I mix fed for 7 weeks but very little of that was breast milk.

It's taboo to talk about preferring to give formula but I look at some mums who had babies at the same time as me and their struggles to breast feed. They still have problems with supply, babies gaining weight slowly, blocked ducts, cluster feeding, thrush, mastitis, avoiding loads of foods themselves because of babies allergies and now that babies are 6 months or so trying to get baby to talk a bottle is causing a lot of problems.

Each to their own and I really do admire those who stick with it through those problems but is it worth it? I just whizz up a bottle of formula in the perfect prep and I know he's getting all the nutrients he needs in a perfectly balanced formula.

So he might not have a virgin gut. I'm not sure all those breastfed babies who get calpol, infacol and gripe water syringed in have a virgin gut either despite what Jack bloody Newman and Kellymom have to say.

speakout · 06/11/2017 09:28

Anon8604 totally agree.

Formula makes breastfeeding hard.

Mustang27 · 06/11/2017 09:35

I agree anon.

Also haveagobletofblood I had all those issues and it never even crossed my mind to stop at 6 months. I do think it’s worth it but only if you are not emotionally and physically ground down by it. Well I didn’t mix feed sorry but the rest of the list. I entirely agree nothing is worth it if it’s effecting you so negatively that you are struggling to enjoy your baby.

haveagobletofblood · 06/11/2017 09:39

And the people who want to make getting formula as difficult as possible for mums who need it can get to fuck as well. There are actual flash cards you can buy from some breast feeding page to show shop owners that they shouldn't be advertising formula. How pathetic and hateful must you be to buy that and use it. These are the kind of people who are thrilled that women who have to use formula have to pay through the nose for it and can't access information about which one is more suitable for their child because the formula companies aren't allowed to discuss it. The message - formula is shameful and disgusting. Well those people make me sick.

haveagobletofblood · 06/11/2017 09:40

Mustang it isn't about struggling to enjoy your baby. It's about struggling to provide enough food for your baby whilst keeping you both healthy and safe.

Mustang27 · 06/11/2017 09:54

I fully understand for some that is the case and I never suggested otherwise. Sorry if the tone came across as anything but understanding.

speakout · 06/11/2017 10:03

My friend is a HCP and comes from a place where formula in unavailable.
She was telling the women from her village about breastfeeding support groups and they were hooting with laughter.
Breastfeeding problems in this village are very rare.

eeanne · 06/11/2017 10:06

streetlife70s it’s not just about advertising, it’s about their funding of research and websites, and in countries with private healthcare systems trying to influence doctors and hospitals to push their products.

These are very successful companies, I wouldn’t doubt that it works. And yet the underfunded NHS is being suspected of pushing false messages while Nestle and Danone rake in the profits!

bigmamapeach · 06/11/2017 10:08

eeanne - with regard to why NHS, WHO etc promote the "breast is best" message - firstly, the WHO's responsibility is for disseminating best practice on health interventions around the world. In low and middle income countries, BF is genuinely life saving. The WHO's remit and lookout in many areas is often prioritised towards those countries (not the richer ones) because the poorer countries do not have their own technical and scientific expertise to the same degree as richer countries - so they look to WHO to provide the coordination and direction. This does to some extent, for certain guidelines and recommendations mean that WHO takes more seriously the needs of countries where there is a greater health burden or need and lesser scientific expertise of its own. for BF, the effects of BF in terms of protection for child and infant health are far greater in those poorer countries. Therefore WHO has a very strong mandate to provide v strong impetus for the protection of BF in its guidelines.

for NHS, the strength of the case is on a different level to that for WHO. But as I previously explained, the case still looks good on paper. URTIs and diarrhoea account for tens of thousands of A and E admissions for infants every year and probably many times more GP appointments. BFing can reduce the risk of those events by a decent margin - maybe 40, 50, 60% depending on length and exclusivity. So on a "health resource use" level, promoting BF for the health service is a slam dunk.

When you look at it from the perspective of the individual family, it's very very different. Because individual families also look at the "work needed" for a single person to do the task of something that can only be done by a single person (the mother). And how this fits into their own needs, priorities and personal situations. And how that plays off against the benefit; for outcomes that, when push comes to shove, in a rich country setting are just not that serious (and most under 1s get an URTI or a case of diarrhoea within the first year anyway).

Meaning these messages get lost in translation. Also the issue I made above, that the implementation of breastfeeding support is not a science-driven thing. We have very little evidence for what actually works in eg, fixing a painful nipple or helping a mother to increase supply. (other than feeding lots, but a heck of a lot of mums who say they weren't making enough milk, have been feeding like crazy and are almost at the point of collapse as a result). Hence -- the mess that we are in.

The way out IMHO is to admit that BF for many mums is not working well, to be prepared to do scientific research to understand better for whom it isn't working and WHY and to develop new approaches which will fix those problems for mothers.

Saying "only 2% of mothers can't breastfeed, you either didn't try hard enough or didn't get the right support" is a horrible thing for a mum to hear who genuinely had problems and spent her entire life on Kellymom and seeing IBCLCs or BF support groups and still wasn't able to make it work.

Boudiccaiceni · 06/11/2017 10:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AppleTrayBake · 06/11/2017 10:18

When people talk about the pressure they felt to breastfeed/ the shame of ff in front of other mothers, it's so far from my own experience.

In hospital I was taught to breastfeed DC1, but from that point onwards every man and his dog was telling me to give them a bottle. HVs to family and friends.

"It's fine in the beginning, but they'll need a bottle as they grow"

"Give them a bottle before bed, they'll sleep through"

"She's crying because she's hungry! Your milk is NOT enough!"

"You're still fully feeding her?!" Shock

"How are we going to bond with the baby?"

"When will you stop feeding?"

Everyone I knew ff, or only breastfed for a few months and thought I was a weirdo for feeding past a year. Who are all these people judging ff, when practically EVERYONE does it?

I ignored all the people criticising me, completely uninterested in uninformed opinions.

AppleTrayBake · 06/11/2017 10:22

Oh and for what it's worth I breastfed because...

-I found it easy

  • I liked that I was the only one who could do it
  • I'm stubborn and hate being told what to do

The health benefits didn't really feature in my reasoning.

My DC2 had an allergic reaction to their first ever solid food and is now an Epipen carrier with lots of allergies.

MrsMogginsMinge · 06/11/2017 11:19

bigmamapeach has it.

Encouraging breastfeeding* makes sense from a public health point of view, because you can (probably) say, across the whole population, that increasing breastfeeding rates by x% could improve y outcomes by z%. Plus it's low cost and convenient if you can get it established, so it seems only right to reduce barriers to breastfeeding for those who want to do it.

That said, it's impossible to identify any specific benefit at an individual level because breastfeeding is only one of many factors affecting a child's outcomes, and is clearly massively outweighed in any individual case by things like maternal mental health or achieving adequate calorie intake. And we should trust women to make the best decision for their families.

It's a bit like encouraging children to walk to school. There are probably measurable public health benefits from increasing the number of children walking to school by x%, plus it's low cost and convenient and it makes sense to reduce barriers for those who want to do it. But, on an individual level, it is clearly outweighed by things like whether you need to drop your children off by car in order to keep your job and a roof over your family's heads, or whether your walk to school would involve trotting down an unpavemented A road in the dark.

Getting that across in a snappy slogan is difficult, though. And the feeding of one's child seems to awaken all sorts of visceral feelings and gut instincts. I'm a fairly sensible woman and I used to get into all sorts of emotional knots worrying about what went into my DC's tummy, whether BFing or weaning or whatever.

(*Whether that is properly done at the moment is very much up for debate, of course. Simply banging on about how brilliant BFing is doesn't help your target audience, i.e. women who want to BF but are struggling, or the many who start but stop before 6 weeks - it just makes them feel a bit shit. The propaganda is, however, much cheaper than easily accessible hands-on support from properly trained professionals, early diagnosis and treatment of tongue ties and all the stuff that would actually make a difference Hmm)

streetlife70s · 06/11/2017 11:36

So glad you posted that bigmumma. You summed up the sentiment of the thread.I felt like the question had been answered many times but the thread seemed to have turned into a formula vs breast feeding debate again (as they always do unfortunately)

Indeed, as has been said many times, breast is better nutritionally speaking. However, the ‘breast is best’ slogan or anything similar is counter productive. The WHO, NHS etc are continually failing to listen to women who are saying that categorically, ‘best feeding practice’ must also acknowledge social, emotional, geographical, cultural, financial, medical, familial and historical contexts. The continual failure to treat mothers and babies holistically and ignore the daily lived experiences that make formula feeding a better option for them and their babies in terms OTHER than nutrition is alienating. It’s not about ‘hurting feelings’ as a PP who spectacularly missed the point claimed. It is the fact that women are not being listened to and in turn, meaningless slogans will be ignored and are counterproductive.

bigmamapeach · 06/11/2017 11:47

I agree about the being counterproductive. What is positively productive in my opinion is treating mothers like intelligent adults who can make good decisions for their own lives - and giving what they need and ask for in terms of help to sort out their specific problems.
A lot of the BF research shows that the benefits are still there with mixed feeding - and I have a sneaking suspicion that many mothers give up BF entirely once they have given the 1st bottle. They may be told there's no point, you've ruined it now by harming their "virgin gut" or they may be ashamed to go to a support drop in or they may think that BF support groups are only for mums who are doing so exclusively. Hence personally I feel the UK BF rates may paradoxically rise if we are clear about combo feeding being viable and having benefits and ensuring combo feeding mums are helped to continue BF for as long as they want to as well.

There are actually plenty of research studies illuminating this eg
bmjopen.bmj.com/content/2/2/e000504

disahsterdahling · 06/11/2017 11:47

I think it’s bloody patronising to think women who choose / have to formula feed have done so because of formula marketing actually

Me too and I said so on the other thread. I simply do not believe that new mums would see an advert for SMA or similar and think "oh look I'll ff instead". They ff because they are finding bf difficult or (as in my case) their baby is a lazy feeder and they just need to get any old milk into their child any old how or they just prefer ff or whatever.

Mothers have brains and are capable of using them.

That's the bottom line for me. Mothers can make their own decisions and should be permitted to do so.

streetlife70s · 06/11/2017 11:55

Absolutely. The current messages surrounding breast feeding are patronising and infantilises women.

MrsMogginsMinge · 06/11/2017 12:14

That's interesting. I think the phrase "exclusively BFing" has a lot to answer for. I mean, I BF for 15 months I'll pick up my medal later, thanks but my DC had a couple of bottles of formula here and there so I guess I don't qualify as exclusively BFing? hands medal back I know quite a few people who did mixed feeding or (more commonly) mostly BFing with the odd FF and I'm not sure where they fit in the stats.

There is a lot of crap talked about one FF somehow breaking the magic spell of BFing. Whereas actually formula is a brilliant invention and I'm so glad it (and sterilisers and stuff) exist to keep babies alive. I think there is a sense that if you can't attain the hallowed status of "exclusively breastfeeding" Halo you should just slink off to the corner with the other FFers and forget all about it. A lot of modern parenting theory is so absolutist - e.g. if you let your baby cry once you will ruin their attachment forever! - and it is so harmful to parents just doing their best.

LaurieMarlow · 06/11/2017 16:10

I agree that the pressure to breastfeed 'perfectly' is totally counterproductive. I have a friend who's Polish and it's very normal there to give 1 bottle of formula a day to give mum a break and bf for the rest of the time. Guess who's breastfeeding rates are higher?

See also nipple shields. They're frowned upon by the purists and they aren't a long term solution, but they've saved many mums sanity.

victoire1208 · 06/11/2017 18:36

I absolutely agree with the all or nothing approach being detrimental to breastfeeding rates. I tried in vain to introduce a bottle a day at about 8 weeks as per the nipple confusion advice. Anecdotally, everyone I know was successful at introducing one evening feed at 2-3 weeks. I quite happily bf 2 way past 2 years old, but my gut tells me life would've been much easier had I not been the only source of food and comfort for so long. I have similar regrets about dummies. I was a stubborn
purist but in retrospect think I should have been a bit kinder to myself.

LaurieMarlow · 06/11/2017 18:42

I've never in my life come across a baby who stopped bf because of nipple confusion. I've met plenty of bottle refuses though. Confused

Swipe left for the next trending thread