to think "Breastfeed if you can" would be a better message

[ringle]

... than "Breast is best".

I say this having start skimmed yet another thread where the OP was driven to post natal depression because of difficulties breast feeding.

PND is far more damaging to babies than formula.

All anyone is saying is that there is a MASSIVE agenda in favour of BF that largely ignores any problems that you may come across. The message is "it's easy and if it's not, you aren't doing it right

Bullshit. There is an agenda for it because it is what is best. Same as there is an agenda for people to stop smoking and eat vegetables. The message is that it is hard, that there is support when you need it,and that you need to persevere because even though it is hard, it is worth it.

All you are saying is just more lies to support your position of attacking a small minority of mothers and pretending the large majority are persecuted and attacked.
Can't you see the hypocrisy?

YOUR Mum must be so proud

My mum's dead. Thanks for the nastiness though.

When you start calling mothers who share stories of feeling suicidal failures ‘diddums’, it might be you who is being hypocritical accusing them of nastiness.

Nice.

Not smoking and eating vegetables are not the same.

Both have been shown over and again in strong scientific studies to have a big impact on cancer risks in all sections of society.

Not so breast feeding. You can fanfare it all you like but breast feeding in this country really has a negligible advantage in comparison to the above.

Kind of ironic and sad given the continuous airtime given to it by some.

I'm currently pregnant again and my notes came in a folder labeled "Breastfeeding. The feedgood factor" (we're in Scotland) however I don't think it matters what slogan they go for as most people seem to have made their mind up to try (or not) before they get pregnant.

With my first I did the NHS antenatal classes and session 1 which was all about birth had around 20 people, session 2 was about breastfeeding... 8 of us came back and according to the midwife taking the class that's always what happens. The class as it happens was perhaps the most useful breastfeeding advice I got from the NHS as despite spending 3 days in hospital post birth, they were totally useless giving conflicting information.

So if people have made their minds up before the baby arrives, possibly before they are even pregnant surely we're going about this wrong. By the sound of all these threads the only people upset and bothered by the slogans are the ones who wanted to breastfeed but couldn't make it work for whatever reason. Maybe research into why women choose not to try and campaigns targeting those issues would better.

“@BlackBanana - All anyone is saying is that there is a MASSIVE agenda in favour of BF that largely ignores any problems that you may come across“

So how come 99% of women on the pregnancy boards on mumsnet day they’ll ‘try to breastfeed’ but ‘not beat themselves up if it doesn’t work’?

It’s utter bullshit that modern women have absolutely no idea how hard breastfeeding can be.

Or maybe there are those women - the ones who’ve —been living under a stone— done no research into breastfeeding and never been on an Internet forum or spoken to anyone who’s breastfed, fuck knows, but perhaps the people who are to blame for that absolute lack of preparation are all of you folk out there encouraging women to feel that how a baby is fed doesn’t matter anyway and to just go with the flow etc etc.

My advice: ffs don’t go with the flow. If you want to breastfeed be prepared to swim strongly against the tide of negativity and bad advice in order to realise your feeding goals.

The thing is breastfeeding is really time consuming. Everyone i know who gave up early or didn't even try decided to because they couldn't spare the time to sit cluster feeding and building up supply. Babies who FF go longer and can be on a routine pretty quickly. I was advised by our child behaviourist to not BF my 3rd as i simply didn't have the time to do it. I did decide to breastfeed against her advice, but ended up hiring a nanny for the first 6 months to help with my other children as i just couldn't manage. Dinner was bought in and the house went to shit. Not many people have the luxury of being able to do that.

People can talk about supporting bfing mums with latch etc, but if they can't live their lives and the rest of their family will suffer they will choose FF.

As for not being able to, my sister couldn't as she has 2 completely inverted nipples and latch was impossible and she had twins. I can't from one side as i have an (inherited) inverted nipple too. But luckily my other side isn't, so could feed, but it's been really hard work.

mini I'm a modern woman, researched everything I thought needed researching about birth/parenting, over-read MN, went to NHS classes, went to NCT classes, went to antenatal yoga with tonnes of new mums coming to talk about the first weeks of parenting. Categorically, the only message I ever got was (verbatim from NHS classes) was everyone can breastfeed, we just have to be positive about it. It was just not presented as something that even needed thinking about beyond what to wear to facilitate feeding, and getting comfortable with feeding out and about.

Like fuck that helped.

I'd have loved, instead of 25 conversations about the merits of pethidine v entonox v epidurals or whatever during pregnancy, for someone to have handed me a sheet of paper titled BREASTFEEDING CAN BE DIFFICULT: Here's what to expect and how to make things easier. And phrasing like "your milk will come in" wouldn't make the cut - it should be "Expect your newborn to feed hourly or more at first as she builds your supply of milk, and that this will likely hurt" and so on.

mrsk
I think you have to decide what's most important to you.
I didn't find it difficult or time consuming at all. Even with three other children and a husband working away.
I didn't bother with much housework. It was fine!

Surely that message is much more damaging. Pretty much everyone can do it. Only about 3% actually physically CANT. There are plenty that do not want to however and that’s ok but telling them they should if they ‘can’ is an awful message lol.

The problem with "Breastfeed if you can" is that most women can physically breastfeed so it's still a bit dictatorial. Many women do not want to breastfeed, many women do not have the support structure that allows them to breastfeed without ending up ground down with exhaustion, many women have physical pain (e.g. mastitis etc) when breastfeeding that makes it a horrendous experience. All of those women can, technically, breastfeed, but for a variety of reasons, the best choice for them is to formula feed.

I do think it's important that women are given the facts about breastfeeding, such as the immunity benefits, reduction in the risk of breast cancer for the mother etc. They should also know that it can be bloody exhausting at the beginning (but having a baby is exhausting, regardless of feeding method), there can be pain when establishing feeding (with my third, I suffered horrendous contractions when feeding for the first few days), it ties you down in a way that ff doesn't.

Equally, they should be aware of the benefits once feeding is established. It is so much more convenient than ff - no bottles etc to haul around when going out, no delay in feeding as food is on tap, no sterilising, you can feed lying down so can doze as you feed (obviously taking precautions to ensure the safety of the baby). I would probably have ended up with pnd if I formula fed as having to get bottles made up and staying on top of the sterilising would have stressed me out hugely.

I think way too much is made of the difficulties of breastfeeding. I also think this is because of the pressure on women to breastfeed as if you say you couldn't breastfeed, it is seen as more acceptable than saying "I didn't want to" or "I tried it and hated it" or "my dp is no help so I'm run ragged".

Women should make an informed choice regarding the best way to feed for them, the baby and their family. However, I think less judgement (from both sides) and more support would result in higher rates of breastfeeding.

I went to a fantastic antenatal breastfeeding class and one of the most useful things they did was a section about the most common reasons why women who want to breastfeed stop, and some of the things that be done in each of those situations. That left me with the belief, not that breastfeeding was natural and straightforward, but that most problems were fixable. I had a mediumish experience of breastfeeding, in that DD gained lots of eight do it was obviously working, but the first 4 months or so were extremely painful. I went to breastfeed both my children for years rather than months or weeks, so the initial problems were only a small part of my overall experience.

I think the number of people who can't breastfeed is vastly underestimated if difficult births and lack of help is added into the equation.

I'm still waiting for my breast milk to come in and my oldest DC is now 27. It was my GP who told me that it isn't normal to constantly take paracetamol because breastfeeding was so painful and no, the baby isn't supposed to vomit up blood and never produce a wet nappy. I don't know what would have happened to us if I hadn't spoken to someone sensible after struggling for a few weeks. The NCT woman cheerfully told me to keep going!

I fed all my DC formula and they are healthy, happy, intelligent functioning adults. It's sad to hear that nothing has changed in all those years.

SonicBoomBoom you are simply wrong. There is overwhelming gold standard evidence of the advantages of breast milk. Even in the Western World where there is ready access to fresh water.

No, this is where YOU are wrong. There is not evidence which shows there are any significant advantages, once other factors are taken into account. Read the studies, critically. You will see.

The physical reasons you give are not reasons that mean you can’t feed but that make it a bit harder.

A bit harder? You suggest the reasons I mentioned just make it "a bit harder"?

As to the bit about milk not coming in quickly enough......do you think most women should breasts spurt gallons of milk during the third stage?

I know how it works, Crumbs. I breastfed.

Milk flow is established by feeding. It begins with colostrum. Everyone takes a few days for the milk to ‘come in’ - although in truth it’s more about relaxing sufficiently to let down. If milk flow is insufficient the answer is to feed more not give up or supplement.

But if the mother has had a difficult birth, it's not just about stimulating supply. Women who have lost a lot of blood in childbirth, for example, their bodies may not be able to produce enough milk until they are suitable recovered. That can be weeks later, or more. Not days. Physiologically, their bodies can't do it, and it's not going to be overcome by trying harder.

For anyone who's interested in why the studies are not 'gold standard', this is an interesting review, and why many of the current breastfeeding promotion tactics are failing.

jhppl.dukejournals.org/content/32/4/595.full.pdf+html

Or click the link in paragraph two:

sciencebasedmedicine.org/are-the-benefits-of-breastfeeding-oversold

My babies were double the size I was at birth - surely better maternal nutrition and advice results in bigger babies that need more food than smaller ones and our bodies haven’t changed so quickly? Equally the traumatic and difficult births that this country seems to specialise in must impact on the body’s ability to produce milk?

Personally I’m sick to death of pregnant and new mothers being treated like idiots who can’t be given clear and accurate information. I’d agree with the pp that lived experience is simply dismissed which results in a disconnect between what we are told is happening and what we see with our own eyes.

I think the number of people who can't breastfeed is vastly underestimated if difficult births and lack of help is added into the equation.

Be careful with the use of “can’t.”
I think what you mean is, “choose not to, due to current and potentially future impact^^ on mental and emotional health.

Very, very few women physically can’t.

The number of women who literally can't is actually tiny. The number of women who feel like they can't for many different reasons is many times larger.

Agreed.

From a physiological point of view very few women can't breastfeed.

I have been a breastfeeding counsellor for 17 years so at the cutting edge of breastfeeding problems.

Headofthehive - i did find it hard. I had a 4 year old with suspected ASD & ADHD who only eats very specific food, and a 2 year old going thru a really terrible toddler time. My DH works long hours and we have a massive untidy house which is full of clutter. I had a big baby and can only feed from one side. She basically fed from 4-8pm every evening. So i couldn't do dinner for the kids or bedtime (ds1 requires a very certain hour routine to go to sleep). I could choose to prioritise bfing and not cook anyones dinner or put anyone to bed i suppose. As it is my baby is now 1 and STILL feeds every 2 hours round the clock, I am being told by HV's this is still normal.

They shouldn’t say preschool children should be active for three hours a day because even though there’s clear evidence that’s good for their health it might put pressure on parents?

Or they shouldn’t say we should eat a diet rich in fruit and vegetables because that’s putting pressure on parents who don’t know how to cook or don’t have time to make healthy meals?

This sort of demonstrates the point that was forming in my head. There is so much emphasis on tiny baby nutrition. Most people can get this right. Give baby formula or breast milk. Sorted. It's when they start eating actual food where people need most help

You didn’t actually answer my question. Do you believe those public health campaigns should also be cancelled because of the risk of making parents who do not follow their advice - whether through choice or circumstances - might feel guilty as a consequence.

Breast is best makes me cringe. I would love to hear the people who preach that say that to a couple who had adopted a newborn or who had to use a surrogate mother, as in those cases formula is best! Feed your baby however the hell you like but please stop trying to adjust people's thinking on to what comes "naturally" is the best way to do it!

I would love to hear the people who preach that say that to a couple who had adopted a newborn or who had to use a surrogate mother, as in those cases formula is best!

Think about it - does this even need to be said?

I would love to hear the people who preach that say that to a couple who had adopted a newborn or who had to use a surrogate mother, as in those cases formula is best!

No, its the only available option. Although come to think of it, I have heard of people buying breast milk in those circumstances, so you're wrong either way.