Sarah Vine: ‘If this hysterical Westminster witch hunt is what a world run by women looks like, count me out’

[gluteustothemaximus]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5037545/SARAH-VINE-hysterical-Westminster-witch-hunt.html#ixzz4xIfYLwOP

Sorry. I should know better than to get wound up by the daily mail, or Sarah Vine.

Lines like: What started as a WhatsApp group of parliamentary employees swapping notes on their bosses has turned into a mob of aggrieved ‘victims’ claiming a million sexual micro-aggressions against a number of unnamed individuals who, it seems, are not even allowed to know where they are supposed to have overstepped the mark.

Poor menz. Not knowing what constitutes sexual harassment.

Or perhaps that depends on your point of view. Because there is a strong cultural and generational element to this, too. Most of the accused are over 40; most of the accusers are in their 20s. In other words, it’s the revenge of the millennials, many of whom will have had their senses of humour surgically removed at university.

Riiight. So anyone who is harassed, doesn’t have a sense of humour if they don’t laugh it off?

Like that stupid ‘Metoo’ hashtag that started trending after the Harvey Weinstein scandal broke, these are not real expressions of emancipation: they are empty, attention-seeking gestures

I tweeted about my rape. I can assure you it wasn’t attention seeking.

AIBU to be sad that some women, like sarah, feel like this?

God, we have along way to go.

My DD1 worked in a cafe, alongside the owner's son, when she was 16. DD is no shrinking violet. Every single shift the boy, who was 19 or so, pestered her to go out with him and commented on her appearance, squeezed past her, grabbed her arse and generally touched her unescessarily. Every shift she told him clearly and seriously to cut it out. He carried on regardless, in fact he escalated. As soon as she got another job, she left.

Ok my DD was doing this job for pin money. Imagine how depressing it would be to be doing it to feed your family, with no alternative.

If the law isn't working now it needs tightening up and better protection for the sake of everyone involved.

But the current climate does have a hint of Salem witch trials or McCarthyism about it. Feverish condemnation on the basis of denouncement. Which history tells us is neither a reliable or fair way of dealing with anything.

And the people doing it are always convinced that they are morally right...

So MargaretTwatyer what is your solution? Should women who have been abused simply shut up in case their abuser is "feverishly" condemned? Should the rest of us disbelieve them for fear of "feverishly" condemning the accused? Why is an open public discussion about how unacceptabletheir behaviour is so distressing to you?

When I was the victim if discrimination at work (maternity related, not harassment) I too simply got another job and left. The point is it is very difficult to vindicate your legal rights if you depend on that job for your living.
That is why establishing channels which enable confidential reporting and independent investigation are so important. I have been involved in investigating a range of matters myself (not just hr related, often other misconduct concerns) and I truly believe these mechanisms are valuable.

"But the current climate does have a hint of Salem witch trials or McCarthyism about it."

I remember when the Jimmy Savile revelations started coming out, quite a few people were saying things like, "Oh, women are just jumping on the bandwagon" or "Poor man, he can't defend himself." Eventually the weight of evidence against him became so enormous that they stopped saying those things and started blaming women for not coming forward earlier.

It's the same now. One woman speaks out and it encourages other women to speak out. But by the time a few women have spoken out, we start hearing about witch-hunts and ludicrous overblown comparisons with McCarthyism.

If you stopped and thought about it for even a short period of time, you'd realise that this has nothing in common with either real historical witch-hunts or even with McCarthyism. Has anyone been executed for something they didn't do? Been sent to prison for a crime they didn't commit? Been blacklisted for holding the wrong political views?

The answer is, obviously, a resounding No. All that's happened is that men who have raped, assaulted or harassed women (or in some cases, men) and got away with it for very many years are now being finally called to account. One has resigned from his cabinet position. Another has had the sixth series of his tv show cancelled. That, as far as I can tell, is it.

It is difficult to see how, in any sense at all, any of this constitutes a "witch hunt".

I liked Ellie Cumbo's response, which was to say something like "to be honest, Sarah, I'd never really counted you in".

Am surprised by some people trivialising some behaviour.

Would a man wink at other guys in the office, touch their knee? As someone up thread said, treat women just the same as you would the men.

The people defending these perverts, better hope their daughters don't become victims like this.

I remember when the Jimmy Savile revelations started coming out, quite a few people were saying things like, "Oh, women are just jumping on the bandwagon" or "Poor man, he can't defend himself. I honestly don't remember it like that. He was safely dead and everyone felt safe to report what he had done. Recent events are more cheering in that the victims of assault are accusing powerful people openly.

derxa: Have a look at this Guardian article from 2012:

www.theguardian.com/media/2012/oct/24/jimmy-savile-bbc-story-so-far

Quite a lot of comments about the abuse, but also other comments such as:

"How come he is now a paedophile and not an alleged paedophile? Have any of his accusers got conclusive evidence of his guilt beyond reasonable doubt?"

or "Has it actually been proved beyond doubt that he was a paedophile yet?"

At this point the scandal was well advanced - earlier on there were a lot of people casting doubt.

www.the-pool.com/news-views/latest-news/2017/44/london-teacher-who-took-upskirt-photos-of-his-students-may-face-a-ban

A classroom ban And thats all Thats the only punishment

"But the current climate does have a hint of Salem witch trials "

No it doesn't. The Salem witch trials involved victimising innocent women then killing them. Pointing out that lecherous men groped women is not a witch hunt. Not even close.

I saw a very pithy comment about this, along the lines of "funny how the phrase 'witch hunt' has been grabbed by the very people - men in privileged positions - who had the power to burn witches, and turned round to be used as a way of silencing the victims of that power when those men choose to abuse it."

hackmum

Excellent post.

The current climate only has a whiff of either McCarthyism or Salem if you don't understand any of those three situations properly.

Lazy, stupid analogies drawn by lazy, stupid people who aren’t even capable of examining the contradictions in their own thinking - if that’s not too elevated a term for what’s going on here.

If you're male, putting the hand on the knee of a younger female in the workplace isn't a friendly gesture. Nobody does this, it's inappropriate.

I had this at a professional conference when I was in my 20s - much older, more senior male. It was quite clear he was trying it on and thought sex might be on the cards. I deliberately said I was just popping to the ladies when I wanted to go to my room to ensure he didn’t “walk me home” (urgh!) & just vanished. These men know what they are doing.

So MargaretTwatyer what is your solution? Should women who have been abused simply shut up in case their abuser is "feverishly" condemned? Should the rest of us disbelieve them for fear of "feverishly" condemning the accused? Why is an open public discussion about how unacceptabletheir behaviour is so distressing to you?

The answer is that victims should feel more secure in reporting so it can be dealt with through the proper channels.

But whether you like it or not, history tells us that public denouncements and kangaroo courts of mob justice don't dispense real justice and are much more likely to condemn innocent people.

And whinge all you want. You're no different from those who supported the Stasi or gestapo or anybody else who meted out justice without trial based on little more than hysteria.

However, don't assume (in general) that just because a victim says it didn't happen, that that means it didn't. There are many reasons why a woman might say she wasn't assaulted/harassed when she was. Ranging from her not wanting a newspaper digging into her past, to not wanting her family and friends to know what happened, to not wanting to lose her job because the man (and his cronies) are still much more powerful than she, to feeling like she was at fault (which she isn't, obviously), to being in denial that she wasn't a willing participant in the encounter.

That's a valid point but surely we have to accept her denial (and I know you didn't mean it the way it reads but she's not a victim if she says it didn't happen). Otherwise, any third party can invent a story and have it taken as gospel despite furious denials by all those allegedly involved.

Polidori - sorry, hopefully you know my stance on this, as I started the thread

But just to clarify, as it does look confusing now I read it back....cathf's posts were entirely predictable, as I have seen her on other threads.

So I just meant, ignore the GF.

I think MN is becoming more and more intolerant of those who do not follow the hive mentality.
Whatever happened to free speech?
Can people not debate sensibly any more without resorting to name calling? I'm neither lazy nor stupid nor disgusting not misogynistic nor ignorant, I just happen to have an alternative view to the groupthink that often happens on subjects such as this one.
And you can ignore me if you like - but it's not a very mature way to conduct a discussion.

Agreed gluteus - not feeding

TinklyLittleLaugh

I had a boss like this. Pushed his penis into my bum every time he walked past, slapped my arse every time I walked past, put his hand up my skirt, talked dirty, always tried to feel me up whenever the opportunity arose. I was 23.

I was living with my abusive partner, who had a drink/drug habit, and I was spiralling into debt to keep my head above water.

I said nothing.

TBH, by this stage, I'd accepted this was what it was to be a woman anyway, as it wasn't the first time.

I talked to other female workers. We agreed he was a perv. A creep. A wanker. This was the only solidarity I felt, with other women going through the same.

So, who's at fault? Me for not saying anything? Or my boss for sexually harassing me?

It wasn't rape after all. It wasn't that bad.

So, cathf, you're anti-ignoring posts - would you say a man was having a 'fit of the vapours' for objecting to being groped by an older, stronger man while he was trying to work?

Genuinely interested to hear your views on this, as someone who is on the opposite side of the fence to you.

I've only had one very minor incident happen to me and I called it out (sorry to those who don't like that expression) as soon as it happened. It didn't even occur to me that it would be career-limiting. It wasn't, as it happens.

Pushing a penis into your bum IS that bad.

But women who moan about someone patting their knee are diminishing the experiences of those who are victims of serious sexual assault.

On another matter, was it really impossible to find a female Tory MP who could have done the Defence Secretary role?

I'm kind of hoping Boris gets implicated in all of this, and we finally get rid of him.

But women who moan about someone patting their knee are diminishing the experiences of those who are victims of serious sexual assault.

Why, exactly? And what would you have those women do?

Seriously, MargaretTwatyer? I'm exactly like a supporter of the gestapo? Please be specific - which post of mine, on this or any other thread, warrants such a vile comparison (especially from the woman who dislikes "feverish condemnation")?