Sarah Vine: ‘If this hysterical Westminster witch hunt is what a world run by women looks like, count me out’

[gluteustothemaximus]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5037545/SARAH-VINE-hysterical-Westminster-witch-hunt.html#ixzz4xIfYLwOP

Sorry. I should know better than to get wound up by the daily mail, or Sarah Vine.

Lines like: What started as a WhatsApp group of parliamentary employees swapping notes on their bosses has turned into a mob of aggrieved ‘victims’ claiming a million sexual micro-aggressions against a number of unnamed individuals who, it seems, are not even allowed to know where they are supposed to have overstepped the mark.

Poor menz. Not knowing what constitutes sexual harassment.

Or perhaps that depends on your point of view. Because there is a strong cultural and generational element to this, too. Most of the accused are over 40; most of the accusers are in their 20s. In other words, it’s the revenge of the millennials, many of whom will have had their senses of humour surgically removed at university.

Riiight. So anyone who is harassed, doesn’t have a sense of humour if they don’t laugh it off?

Like that stupid ‘Metoo’ hashtag that started trending after the Harvey Weinstein scandal broke, these are not real expressions of emancipation: they are empty, attention-seeking gestures

I tweeted about my rape. I can assure you it wasn’t attention seeking.

AIBU to be sad that some women, like sarah, feel like this?

God, we have along way to go.

Well I think Sarah Vine has a point, and I think Anne Diamond did too. I haven't seen what Edwina Curry had to say, so I can't comment on her.
Rape and sexual assault are both criminal offences, and are NEVER acceptable, obviously. Women are - and always have been - free to report these to the police.
My generation of women were the first to infiltrate a lot of previously male-dominated workplaces and everyone was finding their feet and adapting to the new regime. I am embarrassed to hear of women who seem unable to look after themselves and have a fit of the vapours if a man touches their knee - what happened to just telling him where to go?
Honestly, women spent years fighting for equality and acceptance in the workplace, and things seem to have gone full circle now, and they want to ability to run to someone who will sort everything out for them.
It's not progress in my opinion.

I simply don't buy this nonsense about men being afraid to engage with women in case they accidentally harrass them. I expect I'll get through the day without committing any sexual assualts on any of the several women I shall be encountering today. If a chap is so unaware that he can't figure out the difference, then three simple thought experiments might help:
(1) Would you do it to a male mate of your own age?
(2) How would you feel if a woman you don't fancy did it to you?
(3) How would you feel if a bloke older than you, with authority and superior physical strength, did it to you? Repeatedly and with increasing persistence?

I find it hard to believe that anyone would really need to ask those questions of themselves, really they are not a suggestion so much as a way of pointing out how bleeding obvious it should be. I mean, I'm an autistic man who constantly fucks up where social cues and expectations are concerned, and even to me it's a no-brainer. And I have even managed to indulge in flirting and dating without assaulting anyone! Any man who pretends to be afraid that he might innocently commit sexual harrassment by mistake is simply being dishonest. Same goes for women who trot out the "I fear for my sons" crap.

Sorry, turned into a bit of a rant, but really..!

No one is going to to be in trouble for making a remark about someone looking nice

But men need to change their attitude if they know someone well and they have these discussions between themselves then fine if they don’t know the person well why are they saying anything women don’t need men’s flattering or permission or assessment on how they look we are capable of making thesw decisions ourselves

I wonder how many times they tell other men oh those trousers look nice and are a flattering cut that colour jumper really suits you and so on

KooToo have you read the Adam Sandler thread?

cathf: " I am embarrassed to hear of women who seem unable to look after themselves and have a fit of the vapours if a man touches their knee - what happened to just telling him where to go?"

What if he's your boss - have you ever tried telling your boss where to go?

If you're male, putting the hand on the knee of a younger female in the workplace isn't a friendly gesture. Nobody does this, it's inappropriate.

cathf don't you think anyone who has been abused should have recourse to the law and to employment rights? Or, as you so strangely put it have "ability to run to someone who will sort everything out for them"?

If I worked under a manager who every day at work said to me "Oi Polidori you fat bastard, you're totally worthless", should I just "tell him where to go"? Every day? Or should I have the right to have something done about it? Should I have the right not to have that done to me in the first place?

If every day he stroked my thighs should I not have the same rights?

Why don't you think women should have these rights? Should they have fewer rights than I do in order to prove how equal they are?

All employees need to have avenues to report misconduct of all kinds through, cath, because it’s recognised that there can sometimes be good reason why reporting it your boss isn’t viable.
Imagine you discovered fraud in your workplace and your manager was involved. Would it be reasonable to expect you to report it to your manager? No. This is no different.
Us companies are required by law to establish anonymous whistleblowing channels, as are their uk subsidiarirs, as are uk banks and insurers. The workplace has modernised since you joined it, and that’s a good thing.

Agree with Polidori. Male here who's worked in a largely female environment for decades and not harassed any one. It isn't a magical skill. It's respect, lack of urge to bully, and valuing yourself as well as others. It's pretty simple stuff no man should be "confused" about ffs.

Us companies are required by law to establish anonymous whistleblowing channels, as are their uk subsidiarirs, as are uk banks and insurers

How does that work if it is a small firm with a few employees and the boss is the owner?

Also cathf would you accuse a man of having a "fit of the vapours" if he objected to being groped by and older trsonger man while he was trying to work?

How does that work if it is a small firm with a few employees and the boss is the owner?

Perhaps legislation is needed.

I can see no reason why sexual harassment could not be made a criminal offence.

I remember at work around 12 years ago we heard that in our US offices male colleagues were not to enter a lift if they were to be alone with a women in the lift

The outcry from the men in our office of we are not all creeps blah blah did any of them think well this wouldn’t happen if so many women were not assaulted. No they didn’t

Also cathf would you accuse a man of having a "fit of the vapours" if he objected to being groped by and older trsonger man while he was trying to work?

So, so interested in answers to this question, hope they come soon!

Apols sagamartha - should have said us listed companies.

Rape and sexual assault are both criminal offences, and are NEVER acceptable, obviously. Women are - and always have been - free to report these to the police.

Are you for real?

Rape and sexual assault are both criminal offences, and are NEVER acceptable, obviously. Women are - and always have been - free to report these to the police.

You must have missed that Twitter thread that went viral.

A man, quite genuinely asking women what was the reason they didn’t report sexual assault to the police.

The answer came back, because we are so rarely believed.

His response was sorry, but I find that difficult to believe.

And he wasn’t being sarcastic.

I wish sexual assault wasn’t acceptable

But it was and still often is just brushed under the carpet with comments like oh he has wondering hands but he is harmless, he is just trying it on and is a little clumsy often said in a way that is sympathetic oh he don’t mean anything and had obviously had too much to drink

If it wasn’t acceptable these type of comments would not be made but male sexual attacks on women are far too often excused in some way

cathf responses predictable. Just ignore.

Ffs

Sexual harassment IS illegal!

Cathf hope to fuck you don't have kids and aren't a boss!

I have a shy 16 year old daughter who just started work full time. She luckily has an excellent boss.

People are VERY dependant on their jobs right now if they're lucky enough to have them.

This is not about being weak it is about not having power which is NOT the same.

I've worked in large and small, public sector and private companies.

Wtf are you meant to do if the person harassing you OWNS the company, does it only when it's just the 2 of you, there's no cctv, no witnesses, you NEED the job to feed yourself/your family?

The pure ignorance and misogyny that drips from your post cath is shocking and disgusting!

Hmm I wonder what would happen if we had even one day of all the women in the uk harassing the harassers - see how they like it!

gluteustothemaximus do you have anything to say about my response to cathf? Or are you simply saying ignore it because there it is self eviddntly correct and therefore embarrassing to the misogynistic victim -blamers?

Excuse all the typos I was playing backgammon while typing. My bad.

Not reading... it will make me too angry. I just look forward to a day when people with her attitude have all died out

Every time I read or hear of something horrific like this Sarah Vine piece, I am sincerely thankful that there are women on MN and in real life who have the strength to stand up and not be cowed.

I probably like many others am not well enough right now to deal with any more trouble and can't properly engage with the thread, but I am so glad that you lovely MNers have been able to come on this thread and tell the horrible Vine et al to do one.

So a big thank you for continuing to be vocal in sticking up for women... and for sticking up for reason! :) you are all s