Sarah Vine: ‘If this hysterical Westminster witch hunt is what a world run by women looks like, count me out’

[gluteustothemaximus]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5037545/SARAH-VINE-hysterical-Westminster-witch-hunt.html#ixzz4xIfYLwOP

Sorry. I should know better than to get wound up by the daily mail, or Sarah Vine.

Lines like: What started as a WhatsApp group of parliamentary employees swapping notes on their bosses has turned into a mob of aggrieved ‘victims’ claiming a million sexual micro-aggressions against a number of unnamed individuals who, it seems, are not even allowed to know where they are supposed to have overstepped the mark.

Poor menz. Not knowing what constitutes sexual harassment.

Or perhaps that depends on your point of view. Because there is a strong cultural and generational element to this, too. Most of the accused are over 40; most of the accusers are in their 20s. In other words, it’s the revenge of the millennials, many of whom will have had their senses of humour surgically removed at university.

Riiight. So anyone who is harassed, doesn’t have a sense of humour if they don’t laugh it off?

Like that stupid ‘Metoo’ hashtag that started trending after the Harvey Weinstein scandal broke, these are not real expressions of emancipation: they are empty, attention-seeking gestures

I tweeted about my rape. I can assure you it wasn’t attention seeking.

AIBU to be sad that some women, like sarah, feel like this?

God, we have along way to go.

[Polidori]

Yes but hoping Boris has assaulted someone is problematic isn't it?

[ArcheryAnnie]

Is it beyond someone to just tell the other person to fuck off.

When that person is the Secretary of State for Defence and in a position of considerably more power than you, yes, it is.

[Datun]

Given that one in five women would have been raped, I should imagine a hand on their knee would absolutely freak them out.

Grading sexual harassment/assault is as pointless as it is dangerous.

“Everyone knows a hand on the knee is not as bad assault”.

What if that knee belongs to a woman who’s been serially raped? Who dreads the plumber showing up at home? Who can’t bear to be touched?

Do we now have hand out a laminated piece of paper to explain all the reasons why we don’t want our boundaries violated? And rate them accordingly?

Can the perpetrator have a little tick list? Y’know just so he can be sure he’s only violating someone who can take it?

Touching someone without their consent IS a violation. Trying to justify it by using the victim as some kind of barometer as to whether it’s acceptable or not is abusive in itself.

[OnionShite]

It’s gone too far, what Fallon did/said was in no way of the level Weinstein reached

Two problems with this.

The first is that if the standard a person has to meet before being unfit for high office is to be not as bad as Harvey Weinstein, then it's the wrong standard. You don't get cookies for not being a rapist.

The second is that we don't actually know what Fallon did. We do know he's resigned because he couldn't guarantee there wasn't more to come (read- knew there was, and knew it'd be worse than knee touching).

Remember as well that this is the Defence Secretary. That's a pretty fucking big job. He's engaged in behaviour that potentially makes him vulnerable to coercion, blackmail. That's basically why that list that's circulating exists in the first place: it's the dirt the whips have on MPs to keep them in line, which is why potentially consensual liaisons are listed on the same document along with coercing someone into having an abortion. It appears to have been a fairly open secret within Westminster, so who else knew? How might they have used that information?

So even if you think wah women should shut up whining or whatever, there is a very good case that he needs to go because he's too much of a fuckwit. You cannot pull that sort of shit for brains stunt and give enemies of you or the office you hold ammunition to hold over you, to destabilise your department. One could be an outright misogynist and still get that.

[gluteustothemaximus]

The first is that if the standard a person has to meet before being unfit for high office is to be not as bad as Harvey Weinstein, then it's the wrong standard. You don't get cookies for not being a rapist.

Well said!

[KarlosKKrinkelbeim]

Given the prevalence of harassment, discrimination and assault against women in the armed forces, I think it’s reasonsble to conclude that someone who acts as Fallon has isn’t up to the job.
Unless you think, like sir Michael dannatt clearly does, that these things don’t matter.
I’d live to think my daughter could join the armed forces and have a great career but every time these assholes open their gobs I realise that probably isn’t true.

[badbadhusky]

sexual in eye do

^ This aurocorrect (being generous) beauty cannot pass unremarked. I am assuming pp was aiming for ‘innuendo.’

And to follow a post just now, in light of Deepcut and other abuses in the armed forces, a sexual harrasser like Fallon has no place in an armed forces leadership role.

[Pumperthepumper]

I really would love to have a sensible conversation with someone who thinks a knee pat at work isn't a big deal. It never gets any further than 'she's overreacting, not all men, women do it too' - I'd love someone to come back and address this further.

[OnionShite]

See even if you do think those things don't matter, it's still incredibly stupid, because enough people do that it could cause a potential problem for him. It seems to me that wherever one sits on harassment, he's not up to the job.

[HelenaDove]

"There’s a massive difference. Is it beyond someone to just tell the other person to fuck off"


How on earth can someone in a low paid retail job do this if its their manager harrassing them.

And risk ending up unemployed and probably getting accused of making it up because they dont want to work.


I suspect a lot of posts on this thread are coming from a position of privilege.

[BigChocFrenzy]

New Tory chief whip Julian Smith:
“I have suspended the Conservative Party Whip from Charlie Elphicke MP following serious allegations that have been referred to the police.”

[1Mother20152015]

Vine et al are just selling papers. Men know perfectly well hands on knees in work contexts are out. If they choose to do it then they must live with the consequences. I have never reported stuff like that because the down side of reporting is worse but that does not mean it has not happened to me - it has - men in a senior position trying it on at work etc.

[BigChocFrenzy]

MP Anna Soubry told the Times:

"Michael Fallon had to resign because of his behaviour towards women.
One person with great courage made a complaint to No10 of sexual assault.

Theresa May made it very clear she took these allegations seriously and within hours he had gone,"

[Paleninteresting]

This thread made me try to list the number of times I have been sexually harassed, assaulted and raped. I realised I would need a pen and paper to accurately record all of them.
There are that many.
I do not belong to a vulnerable group and I consider myself a feminist and certainty have no problem in speaking out.
The problem with all of these events was for the most part they took place in the context of pre-exsisting relationships. Professional mainly and personal.
Shock, feelings of betrayal, a need to survive with some level of reputation and shame removed the option of taking forward formal action.
This was compounded by being a child of the 70s where in my town girls smiled, were polite and kept the adult drinks topped up.
I'm glad my daughters generation will see the current situation and hopefully shake their head in disbelief that it ever took place.

[CertainHalfDesertedStreets]

This thread made me try to list the number of times I have been sexually harassed, assaulted and raped. I realised I would need a pen and paper to accurately record all of them.
There are that many.
I do not belong to a vulnerable group and I consider myself a feminist and certainty have no problem in speaking out.

This. It's making me really sad actually.

[Paleninteresting]

for me, certain and all others.

[Graphista]

Yes and thank you to the pp who pointed out that for those of us that have been assaulted in quite serious ways a "hand on the knee" or "arm around the shoulder" can actually be really distressing.

I can't actually cope being alone when eg workmen are coming to do repairs. I'm lucky I have people around me who understand this and help me to arrange for someone to be with me when things like this need to happen.

Zero tolerance is the ONLY acceptable line in the sand.

For the apologists that would mean clarity too, no excuses.

I really really have NEVER known of a man touch another man like this in a work setting.

Also to address earlier comments I come from a military background, my main abuser was military and it is a HUGE issue. The attitude is still 'troublemaker' 'after compo' they LITERALLY close rank and the complainant is then often subjected to further and worse harassment - up to and including violent gang rape. Poor performance reports. Disciplined and censured for very minor infractions. Repeatedly passed over for promotion. Etc.

Believe me deepcut - tip of the iceberg.

[gluteustothemaximus]

Paleninteresting #metoo

It’s very very sad.

And that’s why I get so angry when it’s women that try and play this down. It makes it so much harder.

[1Mother20152015]

Pale, there is much more of it about than people say. For me nothing was really very serious but even so it should not happen. Most men are not like this of course but if you work in a company with a good few senior men there will often be one who does it and that kind of man tends to do it to quite a few women - the men who are what I have always called "sex pests". They tend not to rape. They tend not even to go as far as Harvey W in bathrobes and baths, but they do get too close, touch or get so close to touching it might as well have been touching but they are clever enough to avoid the obvious touching so there is nothing easily to prove. Thankfully the brave women who are reporting this kind of thing now might help us put a stop to it so these senior men at work think twice. If we can stop it in relation to those in charge of you at work or in a work context that is a very good start. We can leave nadom men/ builders' wolf whistles for now although that should not be happening either. It is the abuse of power by men in charge including the "minor" stuff in particular that has got the nation so hot under the collar. Yes, it's minor in many cases but it has a build up effect on women and why should we suffer it? I have never ever put a hand on the knee of a man I am in charge of at work ever. I don't mix sex and work. It's not particularly hard to follow that rule.

[makeourfuture]

I think too it is important that we get more women and enlightened men as judges. These things are civil wrongs, and perhaps tort could be opened up in this area.

[Motherbear26]

I know I’m in the minority here, but I do find the knee touching deeply inappropriate. I’ve manage to get through many different situations without ever touching someone (male or female) on their knee. Not sure it’s the incident that he resigned over but I don’t think there was ever any need for it. Would he have done the same to another man? If not, he certainly shouldn’t have thought it acceptable to do to a woman.

[Motherbear26]

And I can’t bring myself to read the link. The problem is obvious, even if some people choose to assume it’s dome sort of conspiracy to bring down poor helpless men. If this all makes them think twice about their behaviour it can only be a good thing.

[juliej00ls]

I think the biggest shame in this is the lack of soladariyy from a significant number of woman. No one should be touched hugged or have comments made about thier appearance. It’s not a sliding scale of do you mind knees arms or bums. It’s not dependent on your previous sexually experiences or otherwise It also includes men. It is very hard to tell someone in a position of power to fuck off. Therefore the onus is on the to behave professionally and stop not to be making judgement such as it’s only a knee. It’s my tucking knee leave it alone

[makeourfuture]

I don't like "banter" at all, even in an all-male environment. It is often bullying.

I think it was mentioned above that this sort of behaviour directed towards women can be both bullying and sexual. There does seem to be an element of "I can do/say this to you, and you can do nothing about it" envolved.

[didnthappeninmyday]

To those who think male colleague putting a hand on their knee isn’t a problem.
How would you feel if a stranger put his hand on your knee whilst sitting next to you on a train?
Or if your bank manager put his hand on your knee whilst talking about your mortgage application?
Or an interviewer during a job interview?
Or a car salesman?
Or a double glazing salesman?

Because it’s not sexual assault is it?