To believe that sex is not 'assigned' at birth, but observed?

[Splandy]

I filled in a form for British gymnastics yesterday and was asked whether my child's gender identity matches the sex he was assigned at birth. I started a thread about this elsewhere and other people said that they have also had this question on forms. Upon asking, one person was told that it is a result of new government regulations coming in, meaning they have to ask it.

Does anybody know what these regulations are? Is there anybody who genuinely believes that sex is assigned at birth rather than observed? If so, could you explain why? I am very concerned that something so clearly untrue is being slipped in under the radar. There was no option to disagree with the question and any answer implied that I agree with what the question states: that sex is assigned at birth.

Would be especially interesting to hear from midwives/doctors.

To clarify, I am talking about your biological sex. Not gender.

The problem with gender therapy now @vorpalmum is that it is extremely difficult to find a therapist who is willing to be neutral in their approach.

It used to be the case that if a child had gender dysphoria they would be given appropriate mental health support to help them with their feelings and help them overcome any issues with their bodies and identity. Clearly this worked as the majority of children with gender dysphoria grow out of it and end up being perfectly comfortable with their sex. On the rare occasions when they didn't grow out of it, they could then take hormones and/or have surgery if they felt like it would help but again they would still have access to neutral support so they were able to make an informed decision about what they were doing.

Unfortunately this is not the case any more. Children are now being put on puberty blockers and drugs and are not being given the chance and time to deal with their issues. If their parents refuse blockers then their children will be refused counselling. Does that sound acceptable to you?

I am speaking from personal experience here when I say that even a couple of years ago, I could find therapists who were neutral in their approach and would let me lead the discussion. This is not the case any more. It is now near impossible to find one who doesn't just tell me to get the surgery and then everything will be all better and there will be no problems. This is so far removed from the counselling I had when I took hormones; everything was neutral, taken slowly, the pros and cons were made clear, I could still have access to counselling no matter what decision I made and it was essentially left in my hands.

justabouthangingintheretoday

What happened to you and your baby was horrible. I can well imagine how it is a very sensitive topic for you.

But this is not about individuals. And it’s not about children whose genitalia is ambiguous at birth.

It’s about using specific terms to describe babies whose genitalia is not ambiguous. In order to further a political agenda.

An agenda that is harmful to women and also for transwoman like curry.

There is no one here who doesn’t have sympathy for what you went through. It must have been deeply distressing.

justabouthangingintheretoday for you and your precious boy. Your experience, and that of another woman on a thread a couple of weeks ago, makes me even angrier that intersex conditions and physical ambiguities are being hijacked in this way.

Why is it do you think curry, that the lunatic fringe of the trans community have managed to seize control of the agenda so powerfully? Because they want it more while everyone else was innocently just living their lives? It must be horrible from your perspective.

'But it also seems to me that some on the thread don't approve of sex reassignment therapy or taking children to gender therapists.'

No, I don't approve of children being given anything that describes itself as 'sex reassignment therapy' or 'gender therapy'. If a child is genuinely distressed about their body (something that is very common as children approach puberty) they should be given neutral therapy by a therapist who wants to genuinely work through their issues not someone who is going to validate them.

different datun curry and others - thank you for your comments and kindness. I am so sorry for the pain that so many have been through which should not have to be re-lived by useless questionnaires that are not going to change or help. People should be free to discuss their sex and their gender but, only if they they choose to, and in circumstances that they are comfortable with. order we are lucky that we have been spared what you describe which is truly terrible. Sadly, individuals seem to have to be boxed into appropriate slots but the truth is that we are all a total mix of taste/interests/those we find attractive and it has nothing to do with being a "boy" or "girl" at birth and we and our children should be free to experience and not be afraid.

What a great discussion - albeit difficult.
Why children who are struggling with their identity are not being offered the care and safeguarding that we offer to other children? Those who are anorexic are not 'confirmed' that yes they are fat and here's a diet sheet? We steer them away from the online pro ana sites which celebrate anorexia. But children agonising about their sex and puberty are immediately confirmed as transgender and referred to transactivist organisations for 'help' and mentoring while their parents and teachers are advised to get them the drugs before puberty starts and warned (using dodgy statistics) about the likelihood of their children committing suicide if they don't 'change sex' promptly. These children are being hung out to dry - and the story of Jazz Jennings will be the first of so many unless we all step up and start actively protecting children.

Those who are anorexic are not 'confirmed' that yes they are fat and here's a diet sheet? We steer them away from the online pro ana sites which celebrate anorexia.

Exactly.

And the Samaritan’s own advice is to ‘play down’ suicide. The self-fulfilling nature of talking about it is a well recognised phenomenon.

Using it to further an agenda is unforgivable.

@messyjessy17

I understand that but I honestly feel that we are/will suffer a huge backlash because of this. It is already happening in the LGBT community.

@Battleax

I have no idea tbh. When you figure it out could you please let me know?

Ha. I don't rate my chances of figuring any aspect of this out, TBH

I have an 11 yr old dd. She is due to start secondary school next yr so we have been visiting schools just a few weeks ago. One school handed out a safe guarding book that included what they have to look out for regarding female children and possible fgm. Yet my Dds primary has just updated their equality policies to include gender issues.

How is one form of mutilating a child's genitals a safe guarding issue yet transit children becoming something we are having to embrace.

One may he a physical injury and one may at early stages be chemical alterations bit both are so dangerous and have so many possible complications. And both seriously damage their chances of a fulfilling sex life as adults.

Well if the baby has a penis it’s a boy if it has a vagina it’s a girl. Very rarely is it impossible to tell. Again very very rarely a persons genitalia doesn’t not match the person the PERMANTLY consider themselves to be. But quite frankly would best be covered by an any other info box. I agree it’s part of some PC agenda. Kids seem to be playing round with identities. So what do you do? Keep changing the form.

Iwanttobe8stoneagain
I think we have to start making a fuss.
Politicians want make these changes and allow self ID because they want to be inclusive - and it's right that transgender people feel safe and free from discrimination.
It's the unintended consequences that are the problem (self ID allowing a predatory man to access sex segregated spaces, sport etc) and the catastrophic impact on children.
So many on mumsnet are parents and know what it's like to struggle with our children as they argue about inappropriate relationships / alcohol/ staying out late / internet use etc. Adolescents are so confident that what they want is right for them while we know that something is dangerous. So we put in boundaries, argue, say no and try to keep them safe.
But suddenly this 'movement' has come along and is actively telling parents (and teachers) that we're horrid and transphobic if we don't agree that our children are transgender. They encourage children to ignore their 'ignorant' parents. They say that our children will kill themselves if we don't let them change sex now, before puberty starts. They are promoting doing actual harm to children and nobody is calling this out!

Children and adolescents are not able to give 'informed consent' to such life changing decisions and we all know this. So why are these organisations being given free access to schools and children? We need to be brave and start challenging this because it will be children who suffer in the long run when they discover that the drugs they have taken, the breast binding etc have critically harmed their bodies. For many their chances of parenthood and even their chances of having pleasurable sex lives will have been harmed.

Take a look at 4thwavenow.com/ for some stories from parents about this.

Honestly, I find some of the attitudes on this thread about gender non-conforming people, and especially trans to be absolutely shocking.

Why on earth would anyone be afraid that their child might be or become gender non-conforming? I cannot think that I would ever do anything but love my children. Yes, those who are gender non-conforming will face big struggles in life. But facing their parents shouldn't be one of them.

vorpalmum what you may have missed is that many of us on these threads have our own history of being gendernonconforming. We aren't speaking out of ignorance or prejudice - we are concerned both for the kids whose gendernonconformity is in danger of being "transed" away (it's essentially gay conversion therapy, which is horrific), and for women and girls who will (and already are) lose out when males are given even more rights (plus ca change...) as females.

norahnamechange

It is indeed exceptionally worrying.

And it’s a testament to mumsnet that they are allowing this to be talked about. Because it’s the very parents who use this site who will be affected by this.

Transactivists can’t stand mumsnet for the very reason that oxygen is allowed to flow through the debate on here. But, it is very telling, they don’t tend to target mumsnet. They don’t want to draw attention to it. Because people who read on here end up being very fully informed indeed.

The rebuttal to the argument is that no one is going to give children puberty blockers to children who don’t need them. But since there is no test, medical or otherwise to determine if someone is transgender, that’s really cold comfort.

Plus the government want to remove any kind of assessment, anyway.

And it infuriates me, because it misses the point. I’m sure doctors do think long and hard before administering drugs, but by then it’s almost too late. Children are utterly confused over the question of biological sex. And it’s precisely because of the propaganda being widely disseminated in primary schools.

It’s not in the least bit reassuring to parents to assert that children will be assessed, when 50 a week are showing up at gender identity clinics. If that doesn’t tell you we have an awful lot of confused children, I don’t know what does.

And the schools are being told to promote this. TAs and primary school teachers who have no real idea about this issue.

If any parents are worried, I would ask the school to show you the science behind this. Ask to see what they are basing these leaflets on. The actual studies. Because, surely, they will be numerous, peer-reviewed and irrefutable, right?

(The picture is Ada Wells, who was head of the LGBT society at Edinburgh University. The group he now belongs to has advised the government on transgender matters).

Transactivists can’t stand mumsnet for the very reason that oxygen is allowed to flow through the debate on here. But, it is very telling, they don’t tend to target mumsnet. They don’t want to draw attention to it. Because people who read on here end up being very fully informed indeed.

When I said they don’t target mumsnet, I meant they don’t talk about us much outside. In public. Because the first thing that will happen is people will come here to find out what the fuss is all about and start reading. And the first rule of trans-activism is #nodebate - as they (really very helpfully) constantly point out.

However, I have absolutely zero doubt that MNHQ are relentlessly targeted. In every way possible. I should imagine they have been sent threats, doxxed, you name it they’ve had it.

With 12 million unique users per month, the majority of whom are women, this platform has to be a nightmare of mammoth proportions for transactivists.

Mumsnet have stood by their strapline.

By parents, for parents.

And yes, we all know it’s a business. But it would’ve been the work of a moment for mumsnet to have shut down this debate. It would not have affected the bottom line. If fact they have probably been advised that it would help the bottom line.

But they held their nerve and waited. And they were right. Because now the tide is turning and they have picked the right side.

By parents, for parents.

If there is one group of people that this issue affects, it’s parents.

Of course biological sex is usually determined before birth, unless the child has an abnormality.

(The picture is Ada Wells, who was head of the LGBT society at Edinburgh University. The group he now belongs to has advised the government on transgender matters).

It's the downside of a non-ageing culture that there is, in effect, no older generation acting as filter to stop fads becoming policy. They all want to be seen to be bang up to date.

I'm thinking about David Cameron and Ed Miliband being asked about pop music, Ed & Yvette at Glastonbury, senior politicians on strictly etc.

Its enough to make you hanker after a fusty "old guard"

Well said Datun

@AcademicOwl

And also because I'm deeply uncomfortable with the agressive stance towards trans-issues. "Othering" people, excluding and generating hostility towards them is exactly what has happened to generations of women. I find it shocking that we are prepared to countenance that towards those who are transgender.

Are you equally uncomfortable with the trans agenda to eradicate the word 'woman' from medical terms? We are now seeing a push to change the term breastfeeders to chest feeders. Pregnant women to pregnant people or birthing person. Medical professionals are being castigated for not offering smear tests to trans women (including ones who haven't even had SRS FFS!)

All because of a very small amount of people who get offended that as a bio male who wishes to change gender they can't actually experience these things as a bio female despite taking hormones and having SRS. And interestingly there does not seem to be any similar push to re-classify men in a similar way.

In what universe is this the right thing to do?

[https://womancenteredmidwifery.wordpress.com/take-action/]

Othering" people, excluding and generating hostility towards them is exactly what has happened to generations of women.

This is the cognitive dissonance and lack of critical thinking, right here.

Who is it who othered and was hostile to women? Where does women’s oppression come from, who does it?

It’s from men. One sex oppresses the other sex. It’s not a handful of individuals oppressing another handful of individuals.

And they’re still doing it! Only now, they’ve managed to persuade certain women that they have a magic pass. And their oppression and sexism can’t possibly be that, because now they are women. So its all fine.

And if you disagree you can shut the fuck up. Or be raped.

Seriously, how can anyone buy this shit.

Re. Mumsnet - I hadn't thought about that before and it's right. I've posted a few times on Facebook recently regarding Radio 4 covering puberty blockers etc and had a right roasting. At least we can debate on here and discuss the facts.

I can't see how with is complicated. No matter who assigns it. It's pretty damn obvious, isn't it? Why do people have such issues having a label?!