To believe that sex is not 'assigned' at birth, but observed?

[Splandy]

I filled in a form for British gymnastics yesterday and was asked whether my child's gender identity matches the sex he was assigned at birth. I started a thread about this elsewhere and other people said that they have also had this question on forms. Upon asking, one person was told that it is a result of new government regulations coming in, meaning they have to ask it.

Does anybody know what these regulations are? Is there anybody who genuinely believes that sex is assigned at birth rather than observed? If so, could you explain why? I am very concerned that something so clearly untrue is being slipped in under the radar. There was no option to disagree with the question and any answer implied that I agree with what the question states: that sex is assigned at birth.

Would be especially interesting to hear from midwives/doctors.

To clarify, I am talking about your biological sex. Not gender.

@AcademicOwl please don't go. I think discussion amongst people who disagree on this issue is one of the most valuable things we can do at the moment. There's such a lot of division here, if we don't talk it's never going to resolve. And as for "othering" - many of us who discuss this have our own gender-nonconforming history, and are speaking from a position of being involved in this for a very long time.

@MyVisionsComeFromSoup I agree. So many of the concerns we raise seem so absurd when you say them out loud, but one of the most striking for me comes with video. Here, in case you haven't seen it before (I bet you have), is Diane Ehrensaft, PhD., a clinical and developmental psychologist, and author of The Gender Creative Child. She is director and chief psychologist for the University of California-San Francisco children’s hospital gender clinic, and is also an associate professor of pediatrics at UCSF. She sits on the Board of Directors of Gender Spectrum, a San Francisco Bay area organization which is heavily involved in matters pertaining to trans-identified children and youth.

And here she is, explaining that a baby boy undoing the poppers on his onesie is expressing his true nature as a girl by fashioning himself a "dress".

vimeo.com/185149379

Absolutely terrifying.

It would be a whole lot simpler, fairer and more sensible if they just opened all gymnastic disciplines to all, and a unisex uniform without bum cheeks and places that should be hairy on adults sticking out all over the place. Shorts and leotard would do.

Well British Gymnastics have made it clear that this is 100% about transgender people and nothing whatsoever to do with being intersex, so no, it's not. So probably best to put that discussion to the side.

The specific phrase is "identify with a gender that is different from the sex they were assigned at birth"

This is actually a phrase loaded with agenda.

"identify with a gender"

but this will get you access to 'single-sex' facilities. So in fact you are identifying as a sex.

Why then do they say 'gender'? Because 'gender' implies something that is a mere personality trait, a preference, and therefore changeable.

"that is different from the sex"

OK so they are saying here that gender and sex are different. Someone can 'live in a female gender role', whatever that means, despite having a penis and therefore biologically being a man..

"they were assigned at birth"

But now they are implying that there might be some error, or that biological sex is changeable.

In terms of the subject of this policy (transgender people) the correct term is

"your biological sex" - which cannot be changed, and is indeed not 'assigned', but rather a matter of objective fact

To the extent that there is a gender/sex distinction, it would be 'gender' which can be 'assigned', in the sense that girls may be brought up from birth in pink etc. and boys in blue.

So a slightly better phrase is "identify with a gender that is different from the gender they were assigned at birth".

However I am not clear that that phrase is yet accurate. 'Assignment' implies something slightly more active. 'I was assigned to Iraq'. Some people deliberately do NOT 'assign' a gender to their newborn (say) boy baby, yet that doesn't make the boy transgender.

So the actual question is

"identify with a gender that is different from your biological sex"

The question is why do we need

"the sex they were assigned at birth"

when "biological sex"

says the same thing, and the answer is we do not - it's part of an agenda to erase biological sex, to indeed erase biology itself, and say everything is merely a matter of preference, and probably those silly doctors were mistaken when they saw your penis, which is actually a lady dick don't you know.

And if you ask where it comes from, well you can look at the 2004 Gender Recognition Act.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7/section/9

"Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman)."

This appears to reflect concerns from decades gone by, where we were worried about things like 'sex discrimination' (i.e. women being less favourably treated).

See this Parliament Committe from 2003 during the drafting:
publications.parliament.uk/pa/jt200304/jtselect/jtrights/34/3416.htm

In other words you had all this legislation that was drafted saying that there were distinctions based on people's sex, and the 'Gender Recognition Act' ripped it all up in one fell swoop. Biological sex was abolished and replaced with gender, yet this was not done explicitly, and this disingenuousness continues today.

That video of Diane Ehrensaft is scary. What she's saying it clearly nuts but she speaks from a place of authority and comes across as being so sure.

Bertrand Russell: The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt

I haven’t seen that. That is terrifying. She is seriously saying that pre-verbal children are fully aware of which behaviours/clothes are ascribed to which gender (country specific, of course) and are intentionally choosing a different one. She’s an expert. And she’s saying that girls are born liking dresses and knowing that they are born to wear them. It’s so fucking sexist it hurts.

My son wears his baby grow like that all the time. He doesn’t know what a dress is. None of the women around him wear them. He pulls everything off his head, like most babies/toddlers.

Doesn’t that video just show classic confirmation bias? She has decided that children understand and choose gender and the associated clothing/behaviour for each, and now interprets typical toddler behaviour as supporting evidence. And yes, what about countries where men wear long, loose items of clothing i.e. dresses? America is not the world.

@AcademicOwl, do you find that video worrying?

So do we refuse to answer these questions on forms? Either by leaving them blank, or writing something alternative in?

It seems an easy and peaceful means of mass protest that would quickly filter back up the management and policy chain if enough people did it;

"N/A - my child's biological sex was recorded at birth"

Bloody hell that video is horrific

Testing stuff out of hair and pulling at clothes is normal behaviour. Gender message ffs. No hair clips are fucking irritating and poppers are made to be ripped open that's why one minute your child is dressed and the next they are streaking down the drive way. It's fucking normal

Battleax, the form I filled in was online so no option for anything other than what was in the drop down box. Even the ‘prefer not to say’ option implies that you accept that sex is assigned at birth. That is a sensible option on paper based forms.

Yes, the online form issue occurred to me just as I hit "post". I suppose "prefer not to say" is better than nothing, in terms of frustrating their purposes and registering a passive protest.

Honestly, I find some of the attitudes on this thread about gender non-conforming people, and especially trans to be absolutely shocking.

Why on earth would anyone be afraid that their child might be or become gender non-conforming? I cannot think that I would ever do anything but love my children. Yes, those who are gender non-conforming will face big struggles in life. But facing their parents shouldn't be one of them.

No wonder trans people don't feel the UK is good place to live. www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ruth-hunt/britain-is-no-longer-cons_b_18321060.html?ncid=engmodushpmg00000003

Have you read the thread

vorpalmum

Why on earth would anyone be afraid that their child might be or become gender non-conforming?

Because 50 children a week are being referred gender identity clinics.

When statistically only only 37 a year will actually have gender dysphoria.

And by the way, no one here cares if their child is gender non confirming. In fact it’s actively encouraged

'Have you read the thread'

Probably not, too eager to leave a plop telling us what terrible people we are because we think the idea of medicating, sterilising and mutilating children should be given a bit of thought before it's accepted as a very good thing.

Honestly, I find some of the attitudes on this thread about gender non-conforming people, and especially trans to be absolutely shocking.

Do you really? Or did you just post that in an attempt to be 'right on' without even reading the thread or thinking about any of the issues raised?

It transsexual, they are assigned the wrong sex their gender was always female even if they where incorrectly assigned male sex at birth so they correct their sex records.

You cannot be assigned the wrong sex at birth. Sex is a fact and it cannot be changed; transwomen will always be male and transmen will always be female. Sure we can take hormones and have surgery to make our bodies resemble the opposite sex however we cannot alter chromosomes so we will still not literally become the opposite sex.

I'm a transwoman. My sex was not assigned (agree that assigned is a strange word in this context) incorrectly as male; it was correctly recorded as male because that is what I am and what I will always be.

Telling children that they can change sex is a lie and not helpful.

You are being transphobic and in time you will be seen as bad as racists and homophobes

And this is why everyone hates us.

And by the way, no one here cares if their child is gender non conforming. In fact it’s actively encouraged

That is the absolute heart of it. What most of us here are terrified of is the idea that happy, gender non conforming children are being leapt upon and told they must therefore belong to the other sex, in furtherance of the sick agenda of a vocal minority of adults.

I'll say it again. I support any person's right - child or adult - to express themselves in any way within, outside or against the gender binary. Your son wants to wear a dress? Fine. My colleague, previously Jane, changes to being called Jack, gets a buzz cut and asks to be referred to as 'he'? I'm down with that as well. I want those things to be more accepted in our society. I want any male-bodied person to walk about in lipstick and heels, any time of the week, and not get punched in the face, verbally abused, or refused employment or housing. If those things could happen, we would live in a fairer, safer and more equal society.

The reason why that can't happen is that lipstick and heels, in our society at this time, happen to be coded as FEMININE in gender. The solution is to accept that anyone, male or female, has the right to express themselves in a feminine or masculine way without being hurt, harassed and insulted.

What the transactivists want is the opposite to this. They say that a boy wanting to wear a dress is not, in fact, a boy wanting to express himself in a feminine way. They say that the child is, in fact, a girl. That this affinity for feminine-gendered things means that the child was 'assigned' the wrong sex at birth. That his little body is all wrong, and needs to be corrected with hormones. Because he wanted to wear a fairy dress.

I can't understand why more people can't see what a load of howling nonsense that is.

*hmm And this is why everyone hates us

Curry, we really don't. We have a problem with the activists, the ones who are trying to force us to say black is white and castigating us when we won't.
The vast majority of people have no problem at all with people like yourself, at least here.

Why on earth would anyone be afraid that their child might be or become gender non-conforming?

This is such a laughable misunderstanding of concerns. We want to protect our children's right to be gender non conforming, instead of them being told by trans activists, "oh you like those toys? You must be a boy then."

And mark my words, that is what's happening. Well meaning parents are being hustled along with this ideology. They are told to disagree is bigotry and encouraging suicide.

But it's all based on falsehoods. Even the suicide statistics are a shocking, blatant lie. They all believe it though because the truth is suppressed.

Give me JUST ONE article about a trans child that is not all about the toys.

Can't? That's because there is none. These likely gay children are having their minds and bodies ruined for life.

I don't know why anyone thinks I haven't read the thread, unless they have read my previous posts 4 or 5 pages back?

I don't think that children should be pushed to be either gender conforming or non-conforming, and I appreciate that many on this thread have quite positive attitudes about allowing children to develop as tehy feel, whatever that is. But it also seems to me that some on the thread don't approve of sex reassignment therapy or taking children to gender therapists. I havne't felt the need to take take my kids to gender therapists, but I would far rather do that than have them struggle their entire lives with gender identification as some of my friends and family of previous generations have done.

But to suggest that I was just to eager to leave plop showing how cool I was or something? Ad hominem only wins arguments on the playground.

But it also seems to me that some on the thread don't approve of sex reassignment therapy or taking children to gender therapists.

I think sex reassignment should be a last resort and only after therapy has failed to help the individual be comfortable in their bodies.

I havne't felt the need to take take my kids to gender therapists, but I would far rather do that than have them struggle their entire lives with gender identification as some of my friends and family of previous generations have done.

I think children and teenagers struggling with gender dysphoria should be offered appropriate counselling and mental health support. That's how it used to be before this shitstorm took off but nowadays children will be lead down the puberty blockers route and refused counseling if their parents refuse because that is transphobic apparently.

ordermeacurry perhaps you didn't read my comments - obviously I am not alone and it was a horrible situation to be in and something I really don't want my child to have to know about. It has nothing to do with transgender or any other trending comment . Simply the facts - if your child / or you were not "assigned" a sex "boy" or "girl" "at birth" the waiting for it to be "assigned" to you - and that is exactly how it felt - is shit. I will not be answering any questions on any forms about what happened at birth and the following few weeks when we were allowed to register him. Imagine not being able to name your child for a few weeks after birth? And then the awful but necessary operations that followed to make sure he looks male.

In that case, vorpal, we have a fair bit of common ground.

Currently, in our society, children are pushed to be gender conforming. (I'm pretty sure the pink/blue nonsense is worse for kids now than it was when I was growing up, and I am sure that the roots of that are in capitalism.) I don't like this push to be gender-conforming, and it looks like neither do you.

I also, like you, don't believe that children should be pushed towards being non-gender-conforming. I believe that toys, clothes and activities should not be gendered at all. But since we live in the world where they are gendered, then of course a girl should be allowed to wear pink and paint her nails and play with dolls, without having those things rubbished by those around her. It's the obligation to conform, or not conform, that's the issue.

Further to this, I think that, if society's expectations were less gendered, then things would be better for all children. There would be fewer little boys being made to feel there was something wrong with wanting to play at fairies. There would be fewer little girls whose activities were limited in the playground by the requirement for girls to wear skirts, and the flimsy nature of girls' shoes.

I also think that there would be fewer people of all ages who struggled with gender-related issues, and who felt as a result that they were the wrong physical sex. Because we would all be able to express ourselves as we wanted.

That would leave a small number of people with a dysphoria related to their physical sex. In the ideal world, those people would be treated sensitively. Their self-expression would be respected. If they continued feeling that they were 'in the wrong body', they (or their parents, if a child) could access counselling to determine the best way to address their dysphoria. In some cases, psychological treatment would be the best solution. In other cases, it would be accepted that the person would only be able to live a fulfilled life by making changes to their body with hormones and surgery. It would be accepted that they could not change physical sex, but they would be able as far as possible to live their lives as if their bodies were the sex that they would have preferred.

Those are the things that I would like to happen. I would like people like your friends (and mine) to have access to sex reassignment and gender therapists, who will provide counselling to determine, as sensitively and accurately as possible, the best course of action for that person.

My concern is that the current direction of transactivism will prevent the above from happening.

Is there any part of the above that you disagree with? If so, let me know your point of view. Discussion is always better than ad hominem argument.