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Original poster

To believe that sex is not 'assigned' at birth, but observed?

365 replies

Splandy · 31/10/2017 12:11

I filled in a form for British gymnastics yesterday and was asked whether my child's gender identity matches the sex he was assigned at birth. I started a thread about this elsewhere and other people said that they have also had this question on forms. Upon asking, one person was told that it is a result of new government regulations coming in, meaning they have to ask it.

Does anybody know what these regulations are? Is there anybody who genuinely believes that sex is assigned at birth rather than observed? If so, could you explain why? I am very concerned that something so clearly untrue is being slipped in under the radar. There was no option to disagree with the question and any answer implied that I agree with what the question states: that sex is assigned at birth.

Would be especially interesting to hear from midwives/doctors.

To clarify, I am talking about your biological sex. Not gender.

OP posts:
Battleax · 02/11/2017 17:00

Nobody does "assign" it, though.

It's an observation. I might as well say that the chap in the lift just now "assigned" me auburn. Meaningless.

BoohHumbug · 02/11/2017 17:11

The phenotype is observed by looking at the external genitals and recorded. In the overwhelming majority of cases this phenotype matches the sex chromosomes. Assign is weird, might as well say allocate.

sagamartha · 02/11/2017 17:24

Medical professionals are being castigated for not offering smear tests to trans women (including ones who haven't even had SRS FFS!)

Is this official policy - or something you read on the internet and decided to spread online to other people?

sagamartha · 02/11/2017 17:37

Interesting - it seems that transwomen who have had surgery ARE at risk of cancer in the newly created area - it's not a big risk but there does seem to be a risk.

convio.cancer.ca/site/PageServer?pagename=SSL_ON_TW_CervicalCancer101#.WftW2rhAqSo

Battleax · 02/11/2017 17:45

But not, presumably, in "in tact" male bodies?

sagamartha · 02/11/2017 17:49

But not, presumably, in "in tact" male bodies

No. But datun seemed to be saying that medical professionals are being castigated for offering smear tests to transwomen who have had surgery (even though NHS guidelines say that transwomen should not be screened / offered the smear test).

I was just wondering where she got this piece of information from that she decided to spread online?

(and yet it seems that transwomen who have had surgery might well be at risk of cancer in the newly created areas especially if they are sexually active)

Battleax · 02/11/2017 17:57

I'm pretty sure she said something like "even those who haven't had GR surgery" but I'm not up to the mammoth task of scrolling to check ATM.

differenteverytime · 02/11/2017 18:10

If a person has a risk of cancer in a newly created part of the body, then it does seem to make sense to add them to the screening process. If they don't have that newly created part, then it obviously doesn't make sense to offer them screening for a part they don't have. I have no idea whether that's a practice being pursued.

But what I'm a lot more worried about is whether medical professionals will be able to offer screening, or make referrals, related to body parts which do exist but do not correspond with a person's identity. For example, what would a doctor do if a trans man presented with symptoms of ovarian cancer? Or if they suspected prostate conditions in a trans woman? Does anyone know what is/will be done in those circumstances?

GrandDesespoir · 02/11/2017 18:14

Just to clear up an apparent misconception, intersex people do not necessarily have ambiguous genetalia.

ArcheryAnnie · 02/11/2017 18:42

Cancer tests for anywhere which is a risk area is a necessary thing, Sagamartha, but calling it a "smear test" is ludicrous. There isn't such a thing as a "neo cervix" - that's a false label designed to make someone feel better about their surgery, not something that has anything to do with cervical cancer or an actual cervix.

sagamartha · 02/11/2017 18:49

Cancer tests for anywhere which is a risk area is a necessary thing, Sagamartha, but calling it a "smear test" is ludicrous

I think the only person who has used the word smear tests isDatun. There certainly doesn't seem to be any news stories about transwomen demanding smear tests - and transwomen aren't offered smear tests because - as has been rightly pointed out - they don't have a cervix.

They are still at risk of HPV infections and potential cancer risks.

Elendon · 02/11/2017 18:50

regarding genital and pelvic cancers specifically pertaining to the biological sex. Perhaps it will be classed as female prostate cancer and male ovarian cancer.

Breast cancer is synonymous with both males and predominately females.

differenteverytime · 02/11/2017 18:57

Hmm - the thing about doing it that way would be that, by biological definition, 'female prostate' and 'male ovary' are oxymorons. 'Male breast cancer' isn't an oxymoron, because it's medically recognised (afaik) that both males and females have breast tissue. So in order to call it 'female prostate cancer', etc., the medical definitions would need to be changed.

sagamartha · 02/11/2017 18:59

Perhaps it will be classed as female prostate cancer and male ovarian cancer

Still prostate cancer / ovarian cancer - and the trans man / women will still have to go to the appropriate specialist centre for screening and treatment.

Elendon · 02/11/2017 19:06

Saga Are you suggesting that a transwoman go to a waiting room full of men who are suffering from prostate cancer?

sagamartha · 02/11/2017 19:10

So in order to call it 'female prostate cancer', etc., the medical definitions would need to be changed

Interesting...

academic.oup.com/jnci/article/90/9/713/1007768

Skene's glands - similar to prostate tissue and PSA (a marker of prostate cancer) rises and they can get cancerous.

sagamartha · 02/11/2017 19:13

Are you suggesting that a transwoman go to a waiting room full of men who are suffering from prostate cancer

If a transwoman has symptoms of prostate cancer and they need to see a specialist, I guess that's what will happen - if the NHS treats / screens prostate cancer this way - with specialist clinics. I don't know if they do - or if they just have 'cancer' clinics?

differenteverytime · 02/11/2017 19:16

Interesting link! Perhaps that would be how it could be addressed. The important thing would be to make sure that anyone at risk of cancer would be properly referred and investigated.

ArcheryAnnie · 02/11/2017 19:19

sagamartha two seconds googling gets me two articles saying transwomen should get a pap tests, and specifically referencing cervical cancer. (I have no doubt there's more, but I can't be arsed to look for it.) This isn't something invented out of whole cloth by Datun.

www.advocate.com/current-issue/2017/3/08/gyno-paps-arent-just-cis-women

www.transfaithonline.org/intersections/cancer/cervical/

Encourage everyone to go for the cancer screenings they need! But don't call it what it's not.

sagamartha · 02/11/2017 19:23

his isn't something invented out of whole cloth by Datun

She said that medical professionals were being castigated for

Medical professionals are being castigated for not offering smear tests to trans women (including ones who haven't even had SRS FFS

Have you got any evidence that medical professionals are being castigated?

sagamartha · 02/11/2017 19:25

Or is it just the name you're concerned about - even though it seems to be the same procedure in all but name?

sagamartha · 02/11/2017 19:32

Encourage everyone to go for the cancer screenings they need! But don't call it what it's not

So you agree that transwomen who have had surgery are at risk from cancer due to the HPV virus in the newly created areas - especially if they have sex with men and should be offered routine screening on the NHS where a sample of cells is taken for cancer screening. But you don't think it should be called a smear test for cervical cancer. Just a test for cancer caused by the HPV virus.

ALittleBitOfButter · 02/11/2017 19:36

I seem to remember reading a comment from a transwoman on here about how excited they was to get their pap smear letter now they had legally transitioned. My interpretation was that that person was an autogynephile who fetishised the process of a doctor inserting an instrument etc.

PricklyBall · 02/11/2017 19:42

"even though it seems to be the same procedure in all but name?"

You do realise that cervical smears involve the nurse or doctor correctly identifying the right anatomical structure and scraping a sample of cells from the right place, don't you? If they don't manage it, the results come back from the lab as inconclusive and you have to have it done again.

Words naming anatomical structures matter in medicine - they are not arbitrary, to be used interchangeably with names for completely different bits of the body.

nooka · 02/11/2017 19:47

Sending a transwoman for a routine woman's health screening test seems like a thoroughly bad idea. The tests for cervical abnormalities are designed for cervixes and the people trained to undertake them are trained with female anatomy. A transwoman with a neovagina might well have health issues and they might have some cancer risks but they are not women. They will need a specialist service so that the right tests and procedures are carried out. Pretending that they are female and have the same anatomy and biology benefits no one.

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