WHBU ? (Wheelchair vs. Buggy)

[DisabilityIsALifestyleChoice]

(NC'd but old hand here)

DH tends to chat in various discussion groups, and yesterday, in a discussion about roads told someone to fuck off.

Here's the conversation which started around using buses and how everyone should do it to relieve road congestion,

DH:
And wheelchair users can wait all day, and still not get a bus if there are people refusing to move their baby buggies.

POSTER:
What are parents to do if they have a child in a buggy, some shopping
underneath, so it cannot be folded and cannot relinquish their position and get a later bus, because they have to be at school for a particular time to pick up their 5 year-old child?

DH:
That's choice, compared to the necessity to use a wheelchair.

POSTER:
It's not choice if you have to do the shopping so as to have an evening meal, have a young child that you have to bring with you and need to pick up the other child from school. The wheelchair user may well have much more choice, as many can walk short distances and chairs
can fold. In some cases, their journey may be purely frivolous, unlike the example parent.

It was at this point DH suggested the poster "Go f* themselves".

I should add that obviously DH is sensitive to wheelchair users (which is what I am) and tries to be polite where he can (as befits his age, and maturity). But he's fretting now whether he was too abrupt .

I wonder what the vipers of AIBU think ? (For the record, I am 100% on his side, here ...)

Neatly put, Tara!

I took this on my bus this morning.. on the right hand side behind the driver there is a pull down seat. I see buggies in there and I would happily stand there. I have done many times.

The wheelchair spot is on the opposite side.

Meanwhile, people who use wheelchairs or their close family have to live the 'debate' every day, and will have it over and over and over again. At some point, you're going to just succinctly sum up with 'oh fuck off', aren't you?

Yes. I can't imagine what it must be like to have to thank people for allowing you to be in public space, with equal access, every single time you go out. For what is your legal right. Every single time.

Your husband was rude and aggressive as are so many wheelchair users when demanding their space on the bus

Unbelievable. Utter ignorance.

The court ruling
101. […] service providers owe positive duties towards disabled people, including wheelchair users, which they do not owe to other members of the travelling public, including parents travelling with small children in baby buggies or other people travelling with bulky luggage. The Court of Appeal, in my view, fell into the trap of assuming that the claims of disabled travellers were no different from the claims of any other person wishing to use the buses. They are not. Disabled people are, for very good reasons, a special case.”

www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jan/18/court-backs-wheelchair-user-who-was-stopped-from-boarding-bus-yorkshire-leeds

LadyBusDriver, I don't understand why you say you aren't certain whether they are specifically wheelchair spaces or not when you have posted pictures which clearly demonstrate that they are?

You say that you would be disciplined if you threw a buggy owner off a bus to allow a wheelchair user into the space. No doubt if you literally threw them off, you would; but if you made it very clear to the buggy owner that that was the expectation, would that still be the case? Because in that event your employers are likely to be breaking the law.

This shocks me. I'm a new mother but wouldn't think twice about this. Either I fold or I vacate. If I choose not to fold up then obviously that's my decision.

I am shocked there is any debate here. Wheelchair space means wheelchair priority.

As someone who's son is obsessed with bus signs, ours DEFINITELY state that the right side space is for wheelchair users but MAY be used by buggies if not otherwise needed. The left side is pull down seats and has a sign saying it can be used by buggies but they may need to be folded. I can't see why a driver would be disciplined for enforcing that any more than for someone smoking on the bus

Disabled people shouldn't have to be perfect to be given their legal rights without quibbling.

But this wasn't a situation where a disabled person was fighting for a space.

This was an online forum.

There are disablist/racist/sexist/misogynistic comments on MN and while it's tempting to tell the posters to go fuck themselves, it will just get your comment deleted and make you look a fool. Better to argue your case so others can learn.

I've learnt a lot about difficulties disabled people face on MN, but it's not from those telling people to 'go fuck yourselves'.

Hi all,

Thanks for reporting to us.

Just a reminder that we don't allow disablism – which is not only against TGs but also not in line with Mumsnet's philosophy of support and advice for all parents.

According to this court ruling, the priority given to wheelchair users on buses is enforceable in law. Of course, it's hard to fold up a buggy on a moving bus – especially with a very young baby or more than one child – but the fact is that wheelchair users have priority in law. We'd be grateful if you could bear that in mind in any future posts on the topic.

Our This Is My Child campaign has lots of information about the ways that people can make life a bit easier for disabled children and their parents. Mumsnet's aim is to make lives easier – please do take a look.

We've removed a few posts that we felt crossed the line - please do report any others that you think are disablist or otherwise break TGs.

Thanks

If they get on I get off simple. Though like I said I think it's wrong.

Misspolly you know you're only Temporarily Abled Bodied (TAB)? You will be old & frail one day, or maybe an accident & you'll have some sort of mobility problem. You never know.

Then who will be wrong?

I would never get on a bus if I was in a wheelchair. Trust me.

But you're assuming that whatever has happened to leave you in a wheelchair still enables you to drive, or have someone to drive you, afford a car, afford taxi's. If you can't or don't have those are you proposing you'll just get pushed the hour journey to your hospital appointment? Or the shops, social event etc?

I honestly can't imagine seeing a parent steadfastly refusing to move to make space for a wheelchair user, obviously it does happen but I almost can't believe people could be so ignorant and selfish.

I was on a bus recently where the wheelchair space was occupied by a parent and child, child walked onto the bus, and stood and sat (in wheelchair) at various times. The bus passed a clearly very disabled (as in, definitely couldn't stand or walk) lady and her carer waiting at the stop, stopped briefly and shouted 'no room sorry!', and drove off.
It was pissing rain and dark. Everyone on the bus was clearly very ucomfortable as the parent and child 'could' have used a regular seat but you can't very well suggest a child in a wheelchair moves..

Tricky one that was.

CamelliaSinensis35 the problem is the drivers wanting to go for easiest life in some cases. Driver could surely have turned round and said "is there anyway we can make space for this wheelchair?" "as she doesn't need to be in for the whole journey, can you collapse that at all/put it in the buggy space "
Its easy to assume those of us who use a buggy are all selfish arses, but often its about not being able to react quick enough and the driver not caring. I keep an eye out the window at bus stops but I also have a 2.5 yo to entertain and care for. I always move not collapse but I need to actually know someone in a wheelchair is coming on first

I would never get on a bus if I was in a wheelchair. Trust me.

And if that was the only way you could leave the house? The only way you could get to your appointments?

I honestly can't imagine seeing a parent steadfastly refusing to move to make space for a wheelchair user, obviously it does happen but I almost can't believe people could be so ignorant and selfish.

I've seen it. A group of women with prams, aggressive, foul-mouthed & threatening to anyone who intervened. The wheelchair user got left at the uncovered bus stop in the rain.

I forever feel ashamed I didn't something to intervene.

It's not always a choice. I've got a newborn, a 20 month old in a double buggy,a 3 year old with walking difficulties, plus an 8 year old. So I wouldn't be happy if we all had to get off. How else are we meant to get to where we need to?

Actually in that example I guess no one would want to get off so it then also relies on the driver giving adequate stationary time to safely collapse and stow. Very few people would willingly hold my child as he has tubes so the time it takes to get all his paraphanalia out of the buggy, collapse and us both seated - drivers are just too impatient. I hope the wheelchair users left behind complain

@LadyBusDriver It really doesn't surprise me that you work for First.

Sleeping YES to drivers wanting an easy life, I've seen them present for racist abuse, violent threats, sexual assault, bullying and general dicking about on the bus - they turn a blind eye and just keep driving. Shitty attitudes some of them.

demirose87 well you'll be told that the 8 or old can hold one of the kids on their lap, someone else will offer to hold the other one whilst you collapse your buggy and stow it. All whilst the driver patiently waits. Or you should have left an hour earlier to allow for all the buses you can't get on.

In reality if you are in the wheelchair space, you have no right to it so you need to collapse or get off but you don't have to be happy about it. But your ire should be aimed at inadequate bus services and provision not the person rightly taking their space