WHBU ? (Wheelchair vs. Buggy)

[DisabilityIsALifestyleChoice]

(NC'd but old hand here)

DH tends to chat in various discussion groups, and yesterday, in a discussion about roads told someone to fuck off.

Here's the conversation which started around using buses and how everyone should do it to relieve road congestion,

DH:
And wheelchair users can wait all day, and still not get a bus if there are people refusing to move their baby buggies.

POSTER:
What are parents to do if they have a child in a buggy, some shopping
underneath, so it cannot be folded and cannot relinquish their position and get a later bus, because they have to be at school for a particular time to pick up their 5 year-old child?

DH:
That's choice, compared to the necessity to use a wheelchair.

POSTER:
It's not choice if you have to do the shopping so as to have an evening meal, have a young child that you have to bring with you and need to pick up the other child from school. The wheelchair user may well have much more choice, as many can walk short distances and chairs
can fold. In some cases, their journey may be purely frivolous, unlike the example parent.

It was at this point DH suggested the poster "Go f* themselves".

I should add that obviously DH is sensitive to wheelchair users (which is what I am) and tries to be polite where he can (as befits his age, and maturity). But he's fretting now whether he was too abrupt .

I wonder what the vipers of AIBU think ? (For the record, I am 100% on his side, here ...)

OMFG
Threads of this topic always get some arsehols but the disablism on this one is some of the worse I’ve seen.

A person with a buggy has the option to fold and choose any seat on the bus, but a wheelchair user can only use one or two. I’m speechless that some people think it’s ok that a wheelchair user should be prevented to use the only space on the bus available to them because a non wheelchair user takes priority for being ahead in the queue?

And that wheelchair users should apologise for needing the space? Fuck that.

To all the wheelchair users who have to face these disgusting attitudes for wanting to travel on a fucking bus, I’m sorry :(

Twice now I've been on the bus as 1 of 2 pushchairs where the bus has pulled up and before other of us could actually do anything, the driver has driven off leaving a person in a wheelchair waiting at the bus stop. Had wondered if there had been a policy change then I caught another bus and a loud tannoy thing asked whomever was using tube wheelchair to vacate the space, about 3 times. Wouldn't mind but I was moving and had dully moved whilst the thing was still going on.

Anyway my point is some consistency would help.
The lady in the wheelchair space the first time was about to collapse her chair and I starter to call out to the driver as we pulled out
The second time we hadotime to look at each other - family in the wheelchair Space had got on first, we were in the second space but got on second - who gets offtheand I said to Dh "we'll have to get off" and the bus pulled away!

Drivers need to give people time to move / fold. They need to not pull away at speed whilst you're juggling kids and shopping and the like.

As for apologies etc, the person in the wheelchair normally apolgises and thanks me for moving, I say no not at all, we were in your space afterall, they comment on how cute the toddler is and its all very British and polite

Only once that I can remember we were on a bus with two pushchairs when a wheelchair wanted to get on.

I was in the wheelchair space, but didn't want to fold down so offered to get off. (DD was about 9 months and wriggly, pushchair wouldn't have taken up less floor space folded so no-where to put it).
The other double buggy was for two that looked about three yrs old, who were sat on their parents laps instead of being strapped in. They point blank refused to do anything to help.
In the end I got off for the wheelchair to get on, but as it was Feb, the driver didn't want me to wait for the next one and told me to get back on in the aisle, but be prepared to move if needed. Everyone getting off told me to stay put.
Unfortunately, when the unhelpful pair needed to get the pushchair off I didn't think to make them apologise first (I did politely tell them what I thought of them though). Others on the bus had made it clear at the time that they thought the two of them were in the wrong, but were very vocal when they were off the bus.
Was at the same bus stop as the wheelchair user on the way back. They were in front of me and we were talking. The person pushing the wheelchair apologised to me, but I don't know why (they were even in the queue before me on the way back!)
I will admit I hadn't really thought about it until then as I think it was probably the first time I had seen a wheelchair on the bus, but didn't think it right that they had to wait for the next one because the other women on the bus were rude. They were half way through the journey so the next one may well have also had two pushchairs.
Once I felt comfortable with dd on my lap, I bought a stroller so that we could fold down if needed in a similar situation.

There are some truly awful disablist attitudes on this thread. DS is in wheelchair and thankfully where we live we haven’t yet come across any problems (yet) using the bus but I’d hate to come across some of the few posters here who think wheelchair users have no more right to their space than anyone else.

Mumsnet does so love a thread where there are opportunities to make up a string of hypothetical scenarios in which to bash the parents of young children, to the extent that even someone who clearly says they get off the bus for wheelchair users, is accused of 'virtue-signalling'

A person with a buggy has the option to fold and choose any seat on the bus, but a wheelchair user can only use one or two

A person with a buggy often doesn't get a choice of more than one or two seats either. Unfortunately due to the lack of extra dimension space, you cannot physically sit down with a folded up buggy, shopping and child in 99% of seats. Sometimes even without the above you physically cannot sit down as the legroom only fits those who are 5'2" or under. There is also nowhere else to put any of these items apart from the edge of the wheelchair area as all storage spaces on buses have been removed. This is why I prefer to wait for the next bus if there isn't space for both me with pram and a wheelchair (if someone in a wheelchair needs the space).

And this is why I avoid public transport with ds.

Although our last two bus experiences with him Have been very positive it has to be said -

Bus in a holiday resort, woman with toddler in a pram refused to move from the wheelchair space for DS to get on in his chair. Bus driver refused to move until she had moved so ds could properly access the space (didn’t have to leave the bus!)

After the GNR the queues for the buses where very long, we spoke to the lady who was organising the buses and she made the people sitting in the wheelchair area move further back the bus and let us on - much cursing from the people in the queue about us “queue jumping”

So actually not the public making the experiences positive but the staff who are seeking to be getting more clued up.

I think that better training of the staff would help. Often I have seen instructions shouted from the driver with no willingness to get involved with the practicalities. For example the drivers are generally DBS checked, they should be seen as a 'safe pair of hands' by parents to mind a child while the parent folds the pushchair. I am sure that many do help but others refuse, or even as a voice of authority 'I am just putting the ramp out, could someone help this woman/man with her baby/pushchair/shopping?' When drivers have adopted that approach the whole bus works together, drivers with a more aggressive stance make the whole process less pleasant.

I am still shocked about some bus companies refusing to do follow on tickets if you have to get off with a buggy to make room for a wheelchair. I would have thought that they should legally do that, otherwise noone is going to move, especially outside of London where bus fares can be very expensive as they may not be able to afford to do so.

Yes there were posters up about that court case - the outcome from the company was that we are to ask pram users to fold their prams in a polite but determined way but if they still refuse then we can not kick them off the bus, a ‘refused travel’ ticket is issued to the wheelchair user.

I can’t believe so many people are saying kick a pram user off to let a wheelchair user on!

If they are both at a bus stop then I will let let the ramp down to allow the wheelchair user on first but if a pram is already on then I would never kick them off.

But is the space a wheelchair space lady bus driver? So why shouldn’t a wheelchair user be able to access the only space suitable for them on the whole bus?

Of course he's technically in the right but I don't think that should always be the case. So many hypothetical situations where the wheelchair user should wait and is more able to wait that the person with the buggy and child(ren).

And factored into all those hypothetical situations is that the person with the buggy has the option to use an easily foldable buggy and sit in one of the other seats on the bus.

of course she shouldn’t have to justify her place in the QUE... she should be in the que like everyone else. If the space is taken then she waits for the next bus, just like if the bus is full then the people wait for the next one.

But it's not "just like" that, is it, LadyBusDriver? If the bus is full, then it's full of people who are entitled to be in the seats or standing. If the wheelchair space is full because someone who is not entitled to use it is there, clearly the wheelchair user should have priority.

I use neither a wheelchair nor a buggy, so I may be missing the point entirely.

I don't understand why, if you know you are going to need to take your child on the bus regularly, you don't get a buggy that you can easily fold? And I don't understand why a sleeping child - who may suffer temporary upset if woken, but would get over it - would take priority over someone in a wheelchair, who may not be able to do what they need to do that day if they can't get on the bus.

And for anyone saying 'first come first served' - most buses I've been on have at least one buggy; I rarely see a wheelchair. So if it's first come first served, the buggy would almost always take priority, and that does not seem fair, as being / having a child is not a disability and won't have an individual impact on transport difficulties for nearly as long.

(I want to point out that I'm not including buggies for children with SN in the above comment, as I see those as wheelchair alternatives. And I do have sympathy for parents with invisible disabilities who may not have as many options as non-disabled parents - but I suspect that most of the buggy non-movers are entitled rather than disabled...)

Bus companies should give follow-on tickets, though. Not fair to make anyone pay twice for the same journey.

Equality is is giving as far as is possible equal access not treating everyone the same. If there was a complaint and you spoke about treating everyone the same/ no one should have priority, you will get yourself and your bus company into trouble ladybusdriver.

Nada, I've reported your disablist post. If, and it's a big if, a wheelchair user is aggressive, perhaps there's a reason for it? Perhaps it's because we've had to fight like fuck to gain access to ONE SPACE ON THE BUS

Well, nada nobody forced you to have another child while you couldn't afford a buggy.

I've yet to meet the wheelchair user who is in it just for laughs.

Are you getting this?

Two babies + no money for a buggy = a choice.

Being in a wheelchair = not a choice.

People like nada need to remember how much the campaigning of wheelchair users and their carers has made life so much easier for the few years they need to use a pram.

They also need to remember that having a baby in a pram is not a disability and therefore they don’t get priority over disabled people.

Lady, you do realise that your attitude could endanger the life of a wheelchair user? Someone who perhaps is unable to control their body temperature, who needs to get somewhere for medication that they're unable to administer themselves, a feeding tube problem, etc? Wheelchair users take priority because they are unable to control so many other factors in the way that an able bodied person can. Wheelchair users take priority because a parent can take an informed decision on behalf of their baby. And yes I know you've said in certain situations, but a buggy user doesn't have to justify use of a bus on the day of travel, and enforcing a wheelchair user to produce a card to state that they are more vulnerable than another wheelchair user adds yet another barrier that disabled people have to get through before they can access society on any sort of footing, let alone an equal one.

Nada who you think is more deserving is irrelevant. It isn't your space. Think of it like a blue badge space but with the bonus that if no one who is entitled to the space is in it you can use it.

MadMags oh, stop with this nonsense about "you CHOSE to have kids therefore suck it up". I chose to have a kid, and I didn't choose to acquire a disability, but it isn't always straightforward.

For some women, the choice isn't always straightforward. Family pressure, failed contraception, the weight of repressive religious practice - it's not always a free choice. And of course, on the financial front, many women have kids when they are financially stable but then life happens - job collapse, divorce, all kinds of things - and what they can afford changes drastically.

And at what point does this nonsense about "choice" stop? I became disabled through a combination of bad luck and genetic lottery. If I'd been doing extreme sports and broken something vital in a reckless skiing accident, or had been drunk-driving and got in a car accident, would my choice to have done something stupid and reckless and endangering made me any less deserving of the right to accessible transport? Yeah, no.

I think this is down to the pram user (some will fold / get off, some won’t) and the wheelchair user (some are physically capable of waiting, some aren’t).

I know my ex army friend in a chair would not ask a buggy to get off the bus - his opinion is that; even without legs he can still manoeuvre himself into a seat and fold his wheelchair up to slide next to him in the seat so why would he ask them to move.

Now I know he is not in the majority but like I say, you can’t lump all wheelchair users in one category.

I’m not certain about this as it’s been a while since I actually looked but I don’t think it’s called a wheelchair space - it’s just a space on the bus that anyone can use but there are polite requests for passengers to allow wheelchair users to use the space...?

Archery it's not nonsense in the context of the thread.

Nada doesn't seem to be able to grasp the concept of wheelchair spaces being for wheelchair users, and her having a shit buggy for two children is neither here nor there.

You being disabled and a parent is irrelevant, really so not sure why you brought it up in relation to my point to Nada?