To ask if anyone in rl has ever actually met anyone who is 'offended by a poppy?

[Whatsername17]

My Facebook feed is full of memes declaring that people are going to 'wear their poppy with pride and they don't care who they offend'. My nan is the latest culprit and I've called her out on it. Cue lots of her friends spouting racist bollocks about people not being able to sell them blah blah. My nan spouting shit about what a good heart I have because I can't see the bad in people. I'm 34. I'm not a fucking child. And breathe!

And will you also remember the victims of the atrocities some of those soldiers perpetrated Moosemoose?

Yes, German Mother at reception drop off. Asked when I was going. Said I was going to see elderly mother who was poppy selling in a tourist spot. She said she didn't believe in it as 'you lot killed my grandfather'. I said 'I' had never killed anyone and nor had my elderly mother as she grew up in Africa. German mother was a bit fiesty, she could start and argument in an empty room. Her child was charming though, a real sweetie so hopefully it skipped a generation.

German mum in the UK? So picks a fight with a good chunk of the population? I wonder if we know the same scary German mum.

Maybe she was joking? Wasn't there and jokey line around 'the jerries? They bombed our outhouse!'.

Strange to choose to live in the UK and pull the "you killed my grandfather" line. Nowt as queer as folk.

I used to work with a total pillock (think preachy public school hippy with very rich parents) who used to bleat about how the minute's silence glorified war and he didn't agree with it. I told him if he wanted to talk during the silence he could do it outside.

Aww did he sulk because you didn't get into a heated debate with him?

No but I think he quickly realised what a wally he'd look like if he continued talking at 11 o clock because no one would reply!

theymademejoin

And will you also remember the victims of the atrocities some of those soldiers perpetrated Moosemoose

Absolutely we remember the victims of atrocities. On Holocaust memorial day we remember the victims who the allied armies were not able to save.

I also remember the civilians caught up on both sides. My mum remembered schools bombed deliberately during WW2 and was adamant that shots were fired from planes at fleeing children - although I've never been able to find verified reports of this. My grandfather said that Dresden should not have happened - nor Hitoshi and Nagasaki.

2 wrongs never make a right but still...

I was asking specifically about atrocities committed by British soldiers, Moussemoose. Your reply is a little unclear to me.

theymademejoin

I think my replies have indicated that I have a wide grasp of history and I fully understand the good and bad aspects of the British Army.

I think we should remember the civilians who suffer during conflict. Fekko makes an excellent point about Dresden which would probably have been considered a war crime if the allies had lost the war.

At the appropriate time and on the appropriate day I will remember civilians killed.

I think to say I will not remember the good an institution did because it also did bad things is very narrow minded. I condemn wholeheartedly the British Armies persecution of Irish civilians. I am sure you will support and praise the positive impact of the British Army and it's allies elsewhere in the world.

I wear mine to remember my grandfather who was shot on 6th June 1944, D day landings and died on 13th June 1944. He was a medic in a field hospital.

I have never come across anyone who was offended by me wearing a poppy.

I come from an ex British colony, my family was torn apart because of the English so I do not wear the poppy as I see it as a symbol of imperialism. However, I have never shouted or said anything to anyone who wears the poppy!

Ok, Moussemoose, so despite what you implied in your previous post, you don't remember the victims of British atrocities as part of the remembrance. Fair enough.

I fully agree that many of the actions of the British military, particularly during WW2, are absolutely laudable and deserving of the highest praise. However, that is not what this thread is about. It is about the poppy and the fact that the poppy campaign encourages unquestioning commemoration and support of British military, with no recognition that many of its members committed atrocities or indeed, that even just in the normal course of war, there was terrible loss on both sides. This type of jingoistic approach leads to a nationalistic attitude that sees the other side as "bad" and does nothing to encourage peace.

theymademejoin

Ok, Moussemoose, so despite what you implied in your previous post, you don't remember the victims of British atrocities as part of the remembrance. Fair enough

Of course you wouldn't remember the victims of massacres as part of a remembrance service dedicated to the armed forces. There is a time and a place. Victims of British actions do not have a day of remembrance. There is a very good argument to have a day when we remember the victims of Empire. I think it would be humbling and appropriate.

But the argument to remember one group does not negate the need to remember another group. This thread is about Nov 11th. On that day many people wear a poppy and remember many brave service men and women who died. On another day we could and should remember other groups.

You can do both.

As for it being jingoistic and encouraging us to think of the other side as bad - this is not my experience. I have stood in silence outside and inside offices and schools in cafes and supermarkets.

The atmosphere is usually solemn and sad. I have seen old men trying not to cry and I have cried myself some years. I think about my dad, who was a soldier, and who is now dead. I have stood with people from many nationalities in silence and respect.

I haven't experienced hostility or jingoism just a lot of sadness and some ignorance by people who forget.

chewiecat

British not English.

I doubt most people would have the balls to openly judge. I judge internally but keep it to myself or share with like minded individuals It's just not on to say anything against 'our boys'. And that's the thing. The poppy is associated with all that these days.
I will happily have quiet silence and reflection on 11/11 to myself thinking about the ghastly world wars and the lost souls but not more recent one.

I agree with most things you say Moussemoose.

Moussemoose - Jingoism doesn't have to be overt. The fact public figures are berated for not wearing one and the fact a number of posters feel the campaign is now more about unconditional support of the armed forces are both evidence suggestive of jingoistic attitudes.

So if I and many others in turn feel that those who judge poppy wearers to be jingoistic are unsuccessful mindreaders we appear to be at an impasse.

I think the person in BBC management who insists on the poppy is wrong: but I think with the passing of the WW1 centenary the policy will be shelved soon anyway.

"The fact public figures are berated for not wearing one and the fact a number of posters feel the campaign is now more about unconditional support of the armed forces are both evidence suggestive of jingoistic attitudes."

I think I agree with this. Not a public figure, but even on the streets as an ordinary person I have been berated for simply saying quietly that I'm going to contribute to a different charity this year. People seem to take very strong offense at this, while they're perfectly ok with you saying you intend to support the cats and dogs home rather than the Red Cross.

Certainly poppy wearers/sellers who have spoken to me over the years seem to feel that criticising recent wars and those who take part in them is some kind of betrayal of the dead of WW1 and WW2. There is a blurring of the lines here which imho has been encouraged by the British Legion. You have only to check their web page to see that the first thing that comes up is about the Armed Forces of today. Now I am totally 100% in favour of former members of the Armed Forces getting the support they need. Of course they should. It is shameful that they don't. But that support should come from the successive governments that sent them out to fight, not from those of us who protested against the conflicts they were taking part in.

Living in a relatively poor community I am worried about how Remembrance Day is used as yet another tool to push young boys into the army. The message is clearly "if you join the army, you will be a hero". Well, actually, if you join the army as a professional, (rather than, as my FIL did in WW2, for the purpose of one particular conflict), then you have agreed to fight any war, just or unjust, for money. And that, in my book, does not make you a hero. Sorry, but it doesn't.

@TaylorTinker - I have never stated all poppy wearers are jingoistic. I have stated that jingoistic attitudes do not need to be overt, which simply means that, like me, you cannot read the minds of those wearing poppies. I have, however, pointed to evidence of jingoistic attitudes related to the poppy campaign. I fully recognise that this does not apply to all poppy wearers. And I most certainly do not claim to know the mind of any one wearing a poppy.

The thing is Cory they probably think you are "making a point" by saying, however gently, that you are supporting another charity. I find "No, thanks" is sufficient. I have come across virulent anti poppy people in the past, it's not rare as some posters here think , it depends on your circle.

No you make a lot of points about "the campaign".
You are a skilled debater.

I wear a white and a red together. This makes some people's brains fuse.