To ask if anyone in rl has ever actually met anyone who is 'offended by a poppy?

[Whatsername17]

My Facebook feed is full of memes declaring that people are going to 'wear their poppy with pride and they don't care who they offend'. My nan is the latest culprit and I've called her out on it. Cue lots of her friends spouting racist bollocks about people not being able to sell them blah blah. My nan spouting shit about what a good heart I have because I can't see the bad in people. I'm 34. I'm not a fucking child. And breathe!

Slightly off topic but my dds football coach has asked that all her team go to church with him on remembrance Sunday as it's important that 'his girls' remember the fallen. I've declined and he's giving dd stick for it I don't gree with the almost fetishistic position people take on this. Having said that I always give to the poppy sellers in our town as I can see it's very important to them.

It is a tricky one, history is a collection of stories written from all sides, based on the facts as seem by observers. As time passes, our perspectives on these events change and they are coloured by subsequent events. Poppy wearers are not one homogeneous nationalistic group, in the same way that peace and anti war activists campaigners are not all anti British, though they may disagree with the decisions taken by recent governments. In the wider context of the world, the glorification of war puts non combatant victims firmly on a different level. Deaths of non combattants during wars in the last 50 years, far outweigh the number of soldiers who have been killed. The white poppy seeks to give voice to those who die, particularly in recent conflicts and modern warfare.

"The white poppy seeks to give voice to those who die, particularly in recent conflicts and modern warfare."

But do also remember that what it actually funds is a movement which campaigns for the abolition of the military.

Winnie: For some perspective, 50,000 white poppies are sold compared to 36,000,000 red poppies and the organisation which sells white poppies, the peace pledge union, has peace at it's centre. I know few people, military or otherwise, who have been in war zones, who don't think peace is an admirable and desirable objective.

www.ppu.org.uk/

The red poppy is also about peace, if you respect what the RBL say.

For of course no-one disagrees with peace as an admirable and desirable objective.

But campaigning for abolition is not a synonym for the maintenance of peace, though of course some people see it as the best way forward. And buying a white poppy supports that campaign. Perfectly valid choice. One that I sometimes feel is overlooked.

I wear a red poppy. So do all my family. So do all my colleagues. So does everyone in our small town. All the shops have them by the tills. It’s about remembering the dead not about supporting the Army or supporting wars.

I went to Brent Cross Shopping Centre in North London this time last year. Not one of my usual haunts. It’s a “magnet” destination and people travel from miles around. A huge crowd and nobody was wearing a poppy at all. Nor did any of the shops have them available. I really noticed it.

For what it’s worth, I doubt that many of the crowd lived in the UK or had parents or grandparents who lived in the UK during WWII. They weren’t offended by the poppy - they were indifferent because it’s just some British thing and not their bag.

So no, I haven’t met anyone who is offended by poppies.

Your words...
'But campaigning for abolition is not a synonym for the maintenance of peace'

Their words
'Since 1934 the Peace Pledge Union has been campaigning against war. Today our priority is to challenge aspects of our society that contribute to the view that war and armed force are effective agents of social change; such belief impedes the emergence of non violent approaches to conflicts.'

Their objectives relate to Peace....

@Moussemoose - when I referred to mistakes by armies, I was referring to modern armies. I do apologise, as I realise it was not at all clear in my post. That what happens when posting on the mobile in a hurry!

I did not excuse the treatment of ww2 veterans by the Irish government. I said they treated them very badly. However, as I don't expect non-Irish people to have a knowledge of Irish history, I provided the historical context.

When I refer to individual responsibility for actions, I am referring to it within the military context. Individual mercenary action is completely different, whether they be Irish or British. When you refer to the Irish role in the opium wars, I presume you are referring to Irish born military? Many of those would have been anglo-irish and would have considered themselves British. Oh, and the British empire was still very much alive after WW1.

Regardless of any of that, nobody is suggesting that the Irish perpetrators of atrocities in the Opium war be commemorated or supported through modern fundraising (other than being included in the poppy campaign). The poppy campaign does just that for the perpetrators, many of whom are still alive, of the atrocities in NI.

I hate that it’s even in my psyche now, that I even think about a poppy being offensive, offends me.

Like the Union Jack and St George’s flag, I love our country and am really patriotic. I hate that, in some minds, it equates racism, I’m the least racist person you could meet.

Somehow it’s turned into a secret symbol that I love Farage when I just really appreciate my country.

Andreewogff perhaps... but given most of the father's family have traditionally emigrated to the States(for as many generations as we could track) in order to avoid working in England for the English.... its pretty unlikely.

To put it in context when my father went to stay with american relations as a young man, to work on a j1 for the summer. They were outraged to hear he wasn't an active member of the IRA at the time. The same people continued to financially support their cause for as long as they lived. They would have happily shot a british soldier in the head given the chance and seen it as something to be proud of. I'd imagine a family member turning "to the tans" would be considered quite the traitor in their eyes..given some of their parents stories of negative interactions with british soldiers I can see why they would have learned to hate that way....living away also allowed them to be more extreme in their views. Its easier to dehumanise people if your not in contact with them.

My father for the record had no interest in terrorism or the IRA activities but historically that was the way the family politics leaned. Perhaps on my mothers side though. They were a little more mellow about politics, but theres no stories of them if it happened(unlike the multiple missionary priests) In both families it's quite likely would have been shunned when they came back from war if they had fought for the British. Sad but true.

The difference is for me a family member being in the british army wouldn't be something to be proud of and would never be considered something to celebrate. Pitied perhaps but not celebrated.

I think people can sometimes underestimate the degree anti imperial sentiment that can still exist within Ireland,we joke about it...800 year of oppression etc but theres a strong undercurrent still present.The Republic of Ireland has only been a independent country for less then 100 years, Its not that long ago since the British army were an occupying force here.

I don't there is any glory involved in violence on either side though and I believe things have moved on over the last generations or two thankfully....but I still stand by the fact its a personal choice not to wear the poppy.

To answer the op question no I’ve never met anyone who is offended by the poppy. I have met a lot of people however who aren’t interested in ww1 or ww2 and the human misery that it caused and I find that upsetting.

No never met anyone offended by the poppy. Live in a predominately Muslim neighbourhood and see lots of poppies around.

*@Tamberlane
*
I know you're just trying to explain why some Republican-minded Irish people don't like poppies.

BUT anyone who wasn't full of goodwill might read your post as excusing or even advocating or glorifying some very bad things as long as they are directed against the British.

That's not very nice.

I wear a poppy not out of pride in war or to "celebrate" family membership in a conscripted army (as it was in WW1) but to remember. And to pity, yes.

theymademejoin

Officers would have been Anglo Irish - like Wellington - the men were not. Ordinary Irish men served all over the Empire repressing the oppressed.

The poppy was used as a result of WW1 in which several Irish regiments fought. As members of the British Army (at the time) these men would have been helped by the RBL. They received no help from the Irish government.

I still fail to see your point regarding Irish serving throughout the empire. The only group suggesting commemoration and support for those who, regardless of nationality, committed atrocities as part of the British army, is the British Legion. Nobody who committed those atrocities should be honoured, regardless of nationality.

Irish regiments in ww1 were part of the British military. Obviously, it was the responsibility of the British, rather than the Irish, to support them afterwards. I presume you wouldn't expect the British to support British people who served in the French Foreign Legion?

Yes, a bit odd to expect a government that didn't exist to deal with it.

I'd also like to clarify the WW2 situation regarding people who joined the British army. There was no universal punishment for people who did this. Soldiers who deserted the Irish army to join the British army were punished, do its not as clear as is sometimes suggested.

theymademejoin

The reference to Empire was in response to your comment that the British Army was worse than other western armies - this is nonsense BTW.

If the British Army was worse (which it wasn't) then its Irish, Welsh and Scottish regiments would share the blame equally with the English. The officers may have been Anglo Irish - like Wellington - but the ordinary soilders repressed and oppressed the Empire.

The point about Irish regiments in WW1 is that as your charity is based on nationality the fact that some money goes to Irish people might influence you.

MrsDustyBusty

The Irish government has apologised for it's shocking treatment and prosecution of ex WW2 servicemen. I would be careful of defending actions that the Irish government has recognised as reprehensible.

Below is a (rather clumsy) link to a book on the subject. The author makes the point that many Irish people do not grasp the full horror and magnitude of WW2 as they were protected from it by the UK. He praises the extreme bravery of over 12,000 Irish men who fought for the British armed services to defeat Hitler. The RBL still supports some of these extremely brave men who volunteered when they could have stayed out of danger in Ireland.

It's not just good or bad, black or white.

www.irishcentral.com/opinion/others/the-irish-world-war-ii-shame-irish-soldiers-faced-hostility-after-arriving-home-153574625-238132961

I would be careful of defending actions that the Irish government has recognised as reprehensible.

I wasn't particularly defending, merely clarifying.

Its all very complex and times ,and famiIes change. My Irish grandfather fought against British Army "oppression", fought during the Easter uprising and was an advisor to Eamon de Valera.He was imprisoned in Mountjoy for gun running.My father remembers the black and tans, and was outcast for marrying an English woman. He had to leave Ireland. My brother ( grandson and son of the above) served in the British Armed Forces in Ireland. My best friend is a senior army officer who lost many colleagues to the IRA....
They all have, or had, their points of view. All valid.
I sell poppies every year and am proud to wear one. The only agression and hostility I have faced is from White Popy wearers. Not quite sure what that says....

And I clarified that I was referring to modern armies. I also apologised for my ambiguous statement.

I have no idea where you got the notion that my charity is based on nationality. I will repeat, again, what I have repeatedly stated: people, regardless of nationality, who committed atrocities such as the various bloody Sundays, the mau mau massacre etc do not, to my mind, deserve to be lauded, commemorated or supported for their actions. The poppy campaign commemorates and supports them, amongst others. Additionally, by only commemorating and remembering those who served with the British military (I wouldn't expect financial support to cross borders to other militaries) it is perpetuating a nationalistic mentality that leads to a "them and us" mindset, the type of mindset that results in wars.

Nope, only ever met people who get offended if you don't wear one

I don’t support poppies. I find them imperialistic, consider that they glorify war and they are used as an emblem to signify political allegiance in NI. Don’t mind anyone contributing to the appeal to help the injured but it’s all a bit too nationalistic for my taste. I find flag waving except at national sports events a bit vulgar

Both DH and I chose not to wear one, but the idea that we would be 'offended' by other people's poppies is utterly bizarre. A lot of my friends are lefty liberal Guardian-reading types - i.e. the sort of people supposedly 'offended' by poppies - but none of them are, although again they mostly don't chose to wear them. It does strike me though that using the poppy as a nationalist badge of pride / stick to beat your ideological opponents with is kinda missing the original point.

dementedma

I think your post sums up the complexity of the situation well.

The RBL provide support for those who our governments sent to war - if you live and vote in the UK.

Many of those soldiers fought in just wars, some didn't; but pain is pain and dead is dead. I'll remember all of them not just the ones who ended up on the right side of history.