To start a thread about things you should not say or do to childless people

[user1485342611]

As someone who can't have children I have sometimes been shocked at how tactless and insensitive some people can be - the latest being a colleague who objects to having to work over Christmas because 'Christmas is about children. Staff with families should get priority'.

I do have a family, it just doesn't include children of my own.

AIBU to be fed up of this kind of stuff and to ask other posters in similar situations to share hurtful acts and words in the hope that it might educate those not in our situation and who don't always think before they speak/act?

Evilcleverdog

It is not your business to start making decisions about whose life outside of work is more worthy than others. You should organise Christmas leave on a fair and rostered basis and allow colleagues to swap amongst themselves if necessary.

This is exactly the kind of thing that makes people without children feel 'lesser'. Having a manager decide that they should come to work every Christmas because they can't 'prove' they deserve a Christmas off.

As someone struggling with infertility having christmas off to spend with my nieces and nephews is really important to me as well! I want to cuddle the kids too and I have a lot less opportunities to do so!

It's harder to disappoint your child than your partner, dad, aunt or whoever.

Is it? You know that? For EVERYONE in the whole world?

Besides, having worked the past 9 christmasses it is not my turn no matter how many kids soneone else has.

Was out with friends once and one got quite shitty at being called childless, she declared that people who don't have them should be called childfree by choice not childless this was about 10 years ago and we were all either single or married but no one had dc at this point so we were all a bit where that had come from - it's not something I can get worked up about but I have made more of an effort to try and use better (for want of a better word) terminology.

Because I have to decide, that’s my job. I can’t risk someone calling in on Christmas Day because they have no childcare, it’s up to me to make sure the business is not affected. And I believe it is fair - there is no childcare on xmas day! It’s a genuine reason for needing the time off. Summer holidays/half terms it’s a different matter.

Incidentally I’ve worked the past 4 Christmas day and Boxing Day myself.

user, yes. But if you couldn't take school holidays off to spend with your nieces and nephews it wouldn't mean you had to spend so much money on childcare it became financially unviable for you to work or pushed you into financial hardship.

There's a big difference between wanting time off to do something nice and needing it off to meet essential commitments.

I always (pre and post children) try and be supportive and helpful to colleagues personal lives. Be their commitments children, elderly parents, spouses who need support or their own medical problems. And they do the same for me. It's not really rocket science.

If you're not sympathetic and supportive to colleagues, you may well find that if you're ever in the position of needing support or care for someone in your own life you won't have a queue of people prepared to swap shifts with you at the last minute or jig round their holiday to help you out.

Have a look at the Gateway website. It’s for women, who are childless by circumstance. I know someone, who is a member. . gateway-women.com

Evil, your job is also to roster staff in a fair and non-discriminatory way.

What if people without children leave because they're finally fed up with always having to work Christmas, leaving you with ONLY people who have children, any of whom could then phone in pleading lack of childcare?

EvilCleverDog my god at I glad I don't work for you!

Does this mean the same people work Xmas year in / year out because they don't have children? It should be fair and that system is not. To be honest I don't see why you even require a reason to be given for why an employee has requested a days holiday

I hate the way concessions are made constantly.

One walked off on the dot at 5pm to collect from the nursery leaving us all to pick up her slack and do the things she hadnt done.

We were solicitors working late was a neccessity.

The Christmas thing has been going on for donkey's. I'd worked every Christmas week for several years when a colleague who had booked that year's week left. I asked if I could have it which was agreed but when my audacity was discovered the pouting, sideways looks and muttering about how the time should be allocated to those with families (ie kids) was breathtaking.

In response to OP, I would suggest never asking those without kids when they are going to have them while going on to describe how outstandingly ace it is to have them and never standing up in front of a packed church asking the lord to 'open the wombs of the barren' on mother's day. Same smug mother of four woman both times.

@evilcleverdog

Are you saying you prioritise single parents with no family who have no one to care for the child?

Because I thought you were saying parents more generally. Which is it? Because if it’s parents generally, or a broader category of parents than outlined above, your point about them needing the time off for childcare is nonsense.

If anyone's children are old enough to understand the concept of Christmas and getting all wound up about a certain day; then surely they are also old enough to understand that mummy or daddy need to go to work this year because xyz (sick people need looking after / we need to earn pennies/some other mummies and daddies were picked this year blah blah) and that Christmas will be just as amazing and fun and lovely when you celebrate it later/before/next day etc.

It's the parents winding up the kids to believe that ONLY DEC 25 is acceptable that can be easily addressed in advance.

Military, emergency services, blended and all sorts of families cope with it year in year out.

And there it is.

People without children have mere wants.

People with children have real actual needs.

People without children are therefore selfish and wrong if they fail to go the extra mile and suck it up for those with.

Fgs, when I was trying, desperately, to have a child I planned all this stuff so I didn't dump on other people and expect to be carried by them?

'Serena Williams recently commented that having a baby meant she would be a 'real woman'.

I used to admire her so much because of her amazing strength and physique. Since getting pregnant though, she seems to be even smugger than Beyoncé. I think she's a muppet now. I doubt she's bothered somehow

Please hold the trite nonsense about Christmas being all about children. Think for just a second about how that makes those of us without children feel. Christmas is about Christmas, and we're all entitled to celebrate it (or not) in our own way. I totally agree that childless / childfree folks should not automatically be expected to take leave when they are told to do so, to accommodate parents

'It's harder to disappoint your child than your partner, dad, aunt or whoever.

Oh big boo hoo. Your family arrangements don't trump everyone else's just because you're a parent

I absolutely second Mummy's recommendation of Gateway Women. They're incredibly supportive and welcoming. Its for any woman who doesn't have children and has some complicated feelings about that situation

Sorry, those with caring responsibilities more generally.

I think evilcleverdog is getting a hard time. If you’ve ever had responsibility for staff rotas, honestly would you think that wanting to have Xmas off “to get drunk with your brothers” absolutely must be treated the same as a request from someone with DC? There are no childcare facilities on Xmas day - what would you expect that parent to do?

'never standing up in front of a packed church asking the lord to 'open the wombs of the barren' on mother's day'

You know, so much horrible crap gets spouted about childless / childfree people that sometimes you think you've heard it all but no, there's always worse to come. That's just so fucking offensive. Disgusting.

@EvilCleverDog Because I have to decide, that’s my job. I can’t risk someone calling in on Christmas Day because they have no childcare, it’s up to me to make sure the business is not affected. And I believe it is fair - there is no childcare on xmas day! It’s a genuine reason for needing the time off. Summer holidays/half terms it’s a different matter.

But it ISN'T your job to sort out childcare in advance - that is just part and parcel of being a parent (which may include parents informally horse trading shifts with colleagues). And if staff, who you have rostered on in a fair and equitable manner do call in on the day, then you need to have made them more than aware in advance that such behaviour will not be tolerated and there will be (disciplinary) consequences, just as if your worker who wanted to go on the lash phoned in with a hangover.

If you enable it, it will happen. You are currently running an inequitable and potentially challengeable workplace and I'd urge you to reconsider the way you allocate leave, if not now, definitely for 2018.

People without children have mere wants. People with children have real actual needs.

I hate that mentality too.

People with children had nothing but a want too.

You dont need a child. It is a want.

Your want screwed you over in terms of time and money and holidays. Not my problem. It's yours.

There's a big difference between wanting time off to do something nice and needing it off to meet essential commitments.

This. But like I said upthread there is a balance to be had here. Obviously it's not fair to refuse to do every shift over the festive period because you've got kids and it needs to be shared as equally as possible over the staff team wherever feasible, but if there's a particular day or two that someone needs the day off to cover childcare (or any other caring arrangement like caring for an elderly relative for that matter), I'd like to genuinely ask what people expect those staff to do if they can't have the day off? It's no good saying 'it's not my problem' because the reality is if people have dependents and they physically have to be off a certain day to meet those care needs, then they're just going to end up calling in sick or taking unauthorised leave, and then the whole staff team suffers because it ends up being even more short staffed because of the unplanned for absence.

AvonCallingBarksdale Actually yes I do, otherwise it is descrimination. You should have a fair way to organise holiday and you should not have to provide a reason to apply for holiday you are entitled to request.

I have helped out over Christmas when other people have wanted it but it that became expected I would stop all together and probably involve HR to be honest

@McTufty yes, single parents with no childcare come first.

It used to be first come first served but everyone put in their request on the day annual leave opened (its an online system, all came in together, who was 1st?). Then we tried ‘name in a hat’ but had people calling in sick or bringing their children to work with them

Company policy is no shift swapping (head office rule) so I have to do what I have to do.

The word "barren" is awful.

I had a thread on here that got picked up by the Daily Heil. It was about the, ahem, rather inadequate reaction my parents gave when I told them DH and I were infertile (they basically said "there are worse things in life" - that should be added to the list!).

Anyway, I made the mistake of reading the comments. One of them simply said "What is she doing on MUMSnet if she is barren". That word, with all its assumption of wrongness and inadequacy and uncreativity, really hurt. Another said "wish more people were infertile. Humans are breeding themselves into extinction. And yes there a FAR worse things in life". Another said "She's very self centered. did she ever consider their pain, their daughter is hurting AND any dreams of grandchildren have just been shattered". There were a lot of people accusing me of being "me, me, me, me, me" about it.

Some people are hideous.