to find it sad that women talk about their DH’a achievements like they are their own

[Curiositykilledthecat113]

On all these “how much do you earn” threads I find it sad to see so many women who gave up careers of a lot of money to be a SAHM and talk proudly about their DH’s income as if it’s their achievement. I wonder why it’s always the woman who cares for the children and how so many woman can decide to give up work leaving them in such a vulnerable position if the husband leaves them.

It’s not a dig, apologise if you see it that way. It’s a genuine confusion on my part because for myself, I would feel underachieving. I’m not saying others have to.

Of course it's a dig, don't be so disingenuous. I'm not sure why you're so 'confused' by others making different choices to you. How odd.

Most of my salary is eaten up with childcare fees. Not all, but a hell of a lot.

Is it worth it? FUCK YEAH! The kids are gonna grow up and need less childcare by the year. They'll trot off to uni at some stage and I'll have a career, lots of work friends and a pension.

Tbh just the social side of working makes it worth it. Just the chats with other adults over lunch where we're not talking about kids at all!

When someone has nothing to say for themselves what they have achieved their goals and aspirations yes I do find it sad

Often opinions are backed up with well me dp thinks blah blah blah

And yes I have met many competitive sahm’s who are like this though no one else seems to have on MN

I don't particularly love being at home while DP works. Right now I can't pick my work back up but in the future I will be able to work from home again and work around the kids school hours. I don't bring in a huge stack of money but I will be able to make minimum wage. My DP also isn't hugely high earning. He earns a good wage which can support us all but I have had no bearing on his career and his achievements are his own. It's all really boring really. We're just bumbling along as best we can with two under 5.

Brokenbiscuit IME of very highly paid roles (as in, £250k plus) almost all of them either have no kids or a SAHP.

Interesting, as that isn't my experience at all. I know one single guy with no kids who is a very high earner, but most of the high earners I know are married with kids and have both partners working.

Just ask yourself why not a single leading feminist thinker has ever been a SAHM.

In addition to their writing, they all had careers, whether they were academics, teachers, journalists or actors.

I’m not remotely interested in a bitchfest- and ultimately it really doesn’t matter what choices other people make. Dh and I have always worked (albeit I worked only 3 days a week while our kids were babies and then went up to full time when youngest was 4) Our children are now grown up, happy and successful (as they no doubt would have been if one of us had given up our career too.) so no personal axe to grind here.
I suppose the only thing which surprises me is that more couples don’t choose to share work, childcare, domestic chores more equitably between them, simply to avoid having polarised roles of ‘career’ and ‘carer.’ Nothing wrong with having polarised roles if it suits the couple. But it does seem that a lot of couples who start off both having good, interesting careers, and who both want to be parents (and are both equally good at parenting!) do end up sacrificing one aspect of their life - either career if they’re the SAHP or time spent in the home if they are the sole earner. And the fact is, it’s pretty much always the woman who sacrifices career and the sole earner man who gets less of a look in with the kids and home. So while there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that set up if it suits a couple, I’m just surprised more couples don’t share things differently

So two high earners and the children being raised by nannies I assume? And this is what we should all aspire to yes?

DH wasn’t a high earner when we met. He is now. So I didn’t meet and marry a high earner. Maybe you’re that shallow that money is something you look out for in a new partner but please don’t assume it of the rest of us.

I am achieving far more for my family by being at home (and I would have been classed as a high earner if I had carried in working in the city). No living life in a constant rush, nursery/school drop offs, rushing to work, doing bits of shopping in lunchtime, weekends filled with chores, never seeing DH as he’d be doing different things with the kids at the weekends whilst I did shopping/ironing/general shite.

As it is I have a lovely relaxed life, time for the gym, fun trips with the DC’s during the week, time to do crafts with them, baking, visiting friends and relatives. Laundry is kept on top of, house is spotless and meals are homemade. It makes me feel like I’ve achieved something and if I were your housekeeper and nanny you’d probably have to pay me a wage which would make me a high earner.

And for the person who said if you can afford childcare not working is s cop out. Fuck off. Working is a cop out IMO, having a wee without a child interrupting you, eating your lunch in peace, drinking a hot drink before it’s gone cold, those peaceful hours in the train engrossed in your new novel, not being responsible for keeping someone alive and safe (unless your in the caring professions) is fucking easy compared to be a full time parent.

Broken and mini pie not true. I'm a high earner and a single mum. Whilst I work in a male dominated industry I do know quite a lot of women who have kids and earn high.

But...I also have a live in nanny as I couldn't find the balance to do both otherwise

And yes I find it said when women bang in about what their husbands earn.

I've said this in other threads, but it's relevant here. Basically, I think women fall into one of three groups:

1. Those who can't afford to work - because they are in low paid jobs and childcare costs would be prohibitive.

1. Those who can't afford not to work - because they have a mortgage or a lifestyle predicated on two incomes

1. Those who can afford not to work - because they have personal assets and/or a very high earning partner. Some people in this category will choose to work. Others won't. It will depend on people's individual circumstances whether they choose to or not. All of those circumstances will be different, therefore any blanket approval or condemnation is basically ridiculous.....

Both are valid choices, I think. I feel that I want to keep working in a professional role because it will enable me to have a good salary and provide for my dc in the scenario that I would be left on my own. However, some people don't want to think about the worst case scenario or are wealthy enough that it wouldn't affect them financially, which is fine.

Even when children are at school it can be hard ....wrap around childcare is not always easy. The after school club I used finished by 5.30 and I did not get home from work till seven so always had to find someone to pick her up.
Then school holidays,sick days etc.
Thankfully I have family that helps but not everyone has that and as a lone parent I didn't have a partner to help either.
Just pointing out its not always as clear cut or easier to work just because their at school.
And my dd still gets upset that I cannot attend school trips and assemblies for her.
They do notice things like this.

Plenty of women are sahm with husbands who are average earners. Are those women just not being supportive enough sahms, which means their husbands can't achieve high earner status?

I think that for me, and my DH, our achievement is that we are happy in ourselves, and in our relationship and that our children are happy - and just at the moment, we are. And that's a massive massive achievement and I'm proud of all of us for making choices to make that happen.

Our family income is pretty good, at times I've earned more than DH, at times I haven't earned anything at all, and just now, I earn about 1/10th of his salary but I get to spend most of my time hanging out with my kids which I love!

I don't feel sidelined into what I do, it's a privilege to be able to be a nearly SAHM (though in many ways the hardest job I've ever done). I have had career highs and lows, and the stress for our family of me working in a demanding job, paying lots to a nanny and nursery (at different times) was overwhelming for all of us. I disliked my job and missed my kids and so I stopped working as we could afford it.

I take pride in my dh's professional achievements - he has been able to progress because of the choices we have made (being prepared to move to another city, adapting our life to fit in with his travel schedule, he can work later or start earlier because we don't need to take it in turns to get home for the nanny) and he is proud of mine (managing two house sales and purchases in six months, providing a varied, loving home for our kids, keeping our home in a decent (ish!) state, finding flexible part time work, as well as my previous full time work achievements.

We have been able to live this life because we are financially able to, OP, perhaps save your sympathy for those who have been forcing into working, or not working, or working three jobs rather than those who have built up families that work for them.

Also, things are changing, our daughters will grow up in a world where more and more parents share income generation and childcare in different ways - because legislation allows for it, because they have been supported to make active career choices, because opportunities for women to manage their own lives are improving. Think positive, don't dismiss people for making choices that fit a stereotype - that stereotype is changing and more and more people are making active choices about what works best for them.

This sort of thing

'And for the person who said if you can afford childcare not working is s cop out. Fuck off. Working is a cop out IMO, having a wee without a child interrupting you, eating your lunch in peace, drinking a hot drink before it’s gone cold, those peaceful hours in the train engrossed in your new novel, not being responsible for keeping someone alive and safe (unless your in the caring professions) is fucking easy compared to be a full time parent.'

is another thing that gets my goat in this whole debate. The depiction of SAH parenthood as somehow the Hardest Job in the World. There are loads of workers in all kinds of jobs who barely get time to go to the loo all day or are constantly interrupted so their coffee is cold by the time they get to drink it. There are plenty who use their commute to get done what they didn't manage to do in the office so they might have a tiny bit of an evening when they finally get home. Then there's lack of autonomy - working entirely to someone else's agenda (which looking after a very small child is to a degree, but really not in the same way).

I really don't mind 'I choose to be a SAHM. It's a nice life and it makes things run more smoothly in the family. We're lucky that we can afford it'. But I do mind the implication that that choice makes someone a paragon of motherhood and WOHM selfish bitches who do it to avoid 'raising' their children.

Actually anyone can raise kids

Anyone can have a job as well! Most people have had one at some point.

I have what most would consider a good job that pays well, but do I consider that an incredible achievement? Not really, thousands of others do the same job, and thousands more enter the field every year. If I were to quit I'd be replaced in a weeks without a ripple. Some of my colleagues are smart, some are stupid. Sometimes I help people in a small way but I'm hardly saving the world. 99% of jobs are the same in this regard.

Btw I'm not a SAHP and never would be one, it wouldn't suit me, but to think everyone's or really most people's career is that amazing is a bit misguided and rude.

OP said: “I’m not annoyed at SAHM’s I just feel sorry for them.”

I had been a bit irritated until that comment as a SAHM to 3 kids. (Even worse, a SAHM to school age kids!) Oh great, a Mumsnet thread about this again. But that comment just made me laugh. It’s so blatantly goady!

How is it OK to say that about anyone? Would you say that about any other demographic?

I have been a SAHM, then worked part time, then SAHM then part time worker, now SAHM again. So was I immune from your pity 6 months ago, but fully able to wallow in it now?

I know I have been lucky to be able to choose. I know I was lucky to have a choice.

And surely that’s what this life is about: freedom to live the life you would like, as long as it does not negatively impact anyone else. Why would you care so much about my little life in SE London, OP?

This set up works really well for my family. But I don’t impose my view, or set up on other families, and I don’t ‘feel sorry’ for people who live life differently. Everyone is muddling on the best they can.

Bless you though, if it makes you feel better to feel sorry for me, go right ahead...

@Piewraith

"Anyone can have a job as well! Most people have had one at some point."

Not everyone can have a career

I don’t get your point really OP and I think you’re nasty and judgemental. Taking two of my friends - one is a SAHM, has always done tons for the community (raising funds and organising the provision of a new playground, running the PTA, helping out friends with ad hoc childcare etc). She is brilliant fun, always busy and has tons of friends. She is also a fantastic mother. I have another friend who WOH. She has her own business and is v successful. She has tons of friends, is great fun and a brilliant mother. I admire both of them.

The people I don’t admire are those who sneer at others. It’s that demeans people, not how they choose to organise their families. yoyo great post. None of your business.

Stop fucking judging.

What makes me sad, no, pissed off, is this need some women have to belittle the decisions made by other women.

'Oh you don't want to contribute, you're a terrible role model to your kids'.

'Oh you want your children to be raised by strangers'.

Who fucking cares. Let people do what suits them and their own situation, no one needs to justify that choice. Threads like this seem to bring the worst out in some people.

You feel sorry for me being a SAHM. How cute.

Except I’m chronically ill and can’t work.

You would assume I was just a Sahm and look down on me. And there is nothing wrong with being a Sahm.

I can do as I please, rest and spend as much money as I want on my health.

Dh and I also have 5 rentals between us, I organised a couple of houses to be done up and turned around for a profit. I’m awaiting on a sale of one of our rentals to do another project as my health costs more than dh earns.

I don’t need to be employed or earn in the way you think to have a fulfilled life. And if we didn’t have the rentals or the income I generate, that wouldn’t make me any less of a person.

Jog on.

None of your business OP not yoyo!

To address the original point, I personally have always wanted to achieve my own career success and I would have certainly not have been satisfied to make do with the reflected glory of my husband's career.

I'm also unconvinced that SAHP s are responsible for the success of the working partner's career. I'm the main earner/high achiever in our household and my husband has not helped me achieve that - he has been busy having his own full time career.

We're all different though and some women (and a smaller amount of men) are happy with that scenario. They don't want or deserve pity or scorn.

At the risk of sounding today I wanted to address the point a poster made about what reason WOHPs could have to disapprove of SAHMs because the choice dies nut affect them. It's occurred to me that WOHMs improve opportunities for women including SAHMs wanting to return to work, and their daughters and granddaughters ...by convincing employers that women can be of equal value to men in the workplace because we don't vanish when we start our families. But SAHMs damage the opportunities for working women (and working women of the future) because it perpetuates the stereotype that women will disappear or only want part time roles once they start having babies, and many employers are still wary about female employees of childbearing age for this reason. Just saying.

dragon you don't need to justify yourself to the OP or anyone else. Fuck 'em.