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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think there is a group on MN deliberately trying to downplay the institutional oppression of women?

999 replies

PerryPerryThePlatypus · 18/10/2017 08:13

I've been hanging around these here parts since Pom Bears were just a bizarre crisp but more and more I see posters chipping away at other posters experiences, feelings of unease etc. It's difficult to articulate but it's just a shift from NAMALT to women are just as bad so stop complaining. An almost subtle silencing.

OP posts:
Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 20/10/2017 07:57

I thought it was a good thing

God dogs are smelly..Not All Dogs Are Like That

Or maybe people would prefer

God dogs are smelly...not mine obviously, maybe everyone would like to contribute the story of how their dog isnt smelly either

bumbleymummy · 20/10/2017 08:04

Handbag - it's how it's used - like 'all the NAMALTs' will be along shortly. Or dismissing someone's opinion because it falls into the category of NAMALT. Sometimes it's perfectly relevant to say that. I haven't seen it used on a thread where someone posts about their attack and is looking for support. I've only really seen it when people make statements such 'most men are...' and you get people agreeing/disagreeing.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 20/10/2017 08:06

Ive only seen it used in the same way as my dog example

So i would say 'men are smelly...NAMALT'

Before someone jumps on me and says 'my man isn't smelly' ive already covered myself

BertrandRussell · 20/10/2017 08:15

It's amazing how silencing getting people to worry about silencing other people is........Grin

Mittens1969 · 20/10/2017 08:16

Sorry, what does NAMALT stand for???

Mittens1969 · 20/10/2017 08:18

Sorry, I’ve worked it out, Not All Men Are Like That. Makes sense.

Pumperthepumper · 20/10/2017 08:26

bumbley I don't think I've seen it used like that but I can believe you because on any thread about male violence someone will pipe up with NAMALT and a story about how their husband is a nice man.

I've already said this in this thread but 'not all men are like that' isn't an opinion, it's a fact. It's a fact that nobody is disagreeing with. It's a fact that is completely unnecessary to point out. And it's a fact that derails the discussion because someone will then reply 'your husband probably is a nice man but this is still a widespread problem, 98% of violent attacks are committed by men' then someone will say 'that doesn't mean 98% of men are rapists' which again, nobody is saying. And it goes round. And the original point is lost.

bumbleymummy · 20/10/2017 08:51

Pumper, and again. People don't tend to feel the need to say it on a thread where someone is talking about their own experience and looking for support. In a discussion where some people are making generalisations about 'men' then people feel more inclined to call them out on it.

yolofish · 20/10/2017 08:53

what pumper said above, the circularity of the discussion is so frustrating...

I also agree with the pps who said they were becoming increasingly feminist as they get older - me too. I am finding it very difficult talking to my 87 year old mother who is firmly of the opinion that boys will be boys and girls are just silly to put themselves into situations.

bumbleymummy · 20/10/2017 08:53

It doesn't mean that they are disagreeing that sexual assault is a problem or that some men are creeps etc

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 20/10/2017 08:54

pumper

Thats what i dont get

This apparent assumption from some posters that feminist or posters who says something derogatory obviously are man haters, and the ' i pity your sons' type comments

They do it like a mic drop moment....'i have a good man' well cheap fucking thrills so do i!!

Not you bumbley Smile

Ereshkigal · 20/10/2017 08:55

Do you get why people feel they have to say NAMALT to avoid the conversation being dismissed or derailed? It's because the fact that your Nigel doesn't do x thing doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things.

Ereshkigal · 20/10/2017 08:57

It doesn't mean that they are disagreeing that sexual assault is a problem or that some men are creeps etc

It doesn't always mean that. But a hell of a lot of the time it does.

Pumperthepumper · 20/10/2017 09:00

bumbley I'm yet to see a discussion about male violence without women sharing their experiences of it. In the 'are most men creeps...' thread, it was abundantly clear that the OP wanted to talk about how widespread the problem was, and what we could do about it. But because people took umbridge against her wording, it became yet again a thread full of stories of nice men. That's not the point of the thread, it's massively unhelpful in addressing the problem raised by the OP because no one is saying that your husband isn't a nice man. They're saying he has a responsibility to change how women are treated and he does.

And call them out on what? The fact that not all men are violent? Yet again - absolutely nobody is saying that.

makeourfuture · 20/10/2017 09:07

Should logic and rhetoric be emphasised more during education? I mean it seems very obvious to me that when someone says "Men harrass" that they are not talking necessarily about a particular Uncle Jerry.

So it seems that the following four-page argument is either an intentional derail, or a very basic misunderstanding of dialectic.

BertrandRussell · 20/10/2017 09:09

It's a shame that we can't, as sensible adults, takr some things for granted about each other.Discussion/debate would be much easier then. How about we all agree that, in no particular order -

  1. Feminists do not hate men, and yes, many, if not most, do have men in their lives that they love.
  2. Feminists do not look at their baby sons and think "rapist"
  3. Feminists don't think that all men are [insert negative thing here]
  4. Yes, feminists do know that women do wicked, awful things.
  5. Feminists do know that sometimes men are victims and need /deserve support.
  6. There are some things a woman can do that means they can't also be a feminist, but there aren't many of them, and they do not include wearing nice clothes and make up, shaving your legs or being a SAHM.
  7. There are non feminist choices that women make-this does not mean that woman is not a feminist. Unless it is a choice to traffic women for the sex industry or something.
  8. Women do not have to agree with each other. We are not the Borg.
Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 20/10/2017 09:10

make

I think its a little of both

JoanBartlett · 20/10/2017 09:10

I think it is water off a dog's back to many of us by now but it stilli sn't true (that just because you say some men do XYZ to women means you hate men). It is the argument used by those who have lost the argument really.

We can spend too long arguing over definitions and thread titles but the bottom line is there is a huge amount of sex creeps out there getting at women particularly in work contexts and thankfully this Weinstein case has allowed a lot more publicity about it which might stop some men in their tracks. We also recognised sometimes the genders are reversed at work but that is less common. Even so it is also bad of course.

Pumperthepumper · 20/10/2017 09:12

Rufus or 'have you had therapy for your mate-hating issues'

taratill · 20/10/2017 09:18

But how are you going to stop it? In the 'most men are creeps example' (I haven't read the thread) then , due to the language used in the title, you are going to have people chime up with the NAMALT argument, factually they are correct.

I doubt the intention is to derail the thread or to say that sexual violence is not a problem, they are just pointing out what everyone seems to agree on here is, a fact.

I'm not saying it doesn't have that impact sometimes but I really do doubt it's the intention.

The problem with all threads on Mumsnet no matter the topic is that keyboard warriors are desperate to pick you up on something, you see it in loads of threads not just ones to do with feminist issues. The words you use are important. My goodness I've seen that on this thread!

taratill · 20/10/2017 09:23

Bertrand the problem is though that the minute you pull someone up for stating something which is factually correct on the basis it will derail the thread they will make assumptions that because you are a feminist you tar all men with the same brush.

If I'm honest I'm guilty of assuming that most feminists don't believe the things you do because of the way they pull other women up for pointing out facts that cannot be disputed but may, I can see, detract from the argument.

I'm pleased I've read this thread because I now understand that my assumptions have been wrong.

Ereshkigal · 20/10/2017 09:23

I'm not saying it doesn't have that impact sometimes but I really do doubt it's the intention.

You're either extremely naive or you're being disingenuous.

BertrandRussell · 20/10/2017 09:24

As I said earlier, can't we just assume that nobody really thinks all men are creeps/rapists whatever.

Although there are many threads on Mumsnet where people say unchallenged that all men can't see dirt/look after babies/cook/wrap presents/remember birthdays. I don't see much NAMALTing on those!

Ereshkigal · 20/10/2017 09:26

Although there are many threads on Mumsnet where people say unchallenged that all men can't see dirt/look after babies/cook/wrap presents/remember birthdays. I don't see much NAMALTing on those!

Exactly.

taratill · 20/10/2017 09:29

ereshal but how ? Again I'm being criticised for pointing out what I believe to be true which is quite offensive actually.

I have at times on this thread said NALMALT it was me who pointed out that 98% of men commit sex crimes just because 98% are committed by men. I wasn't trying to derail or denegrate the argument at all. I was just stating the truth. Because I'm interested in this topic and the arguments I have followed them through and can see how that can look as though it is intentionally trying to derail. I can categorical tell you that it wasn't though.

I cannot be the only person who could not see that point without having it spelt out to them.

So please don't belittle what I'm saying.

Of course some may be trying to derail but some may just not have thought of it from that point of view.