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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think there is a group on MN deliberately trying to downplay the institutional oppression of women?

999 replies

PerryPerryThePlatypus · 18/10/2017 08:13

I've been hanging around these here parts since Pom Bears were just a bizarre crisp but more and more I see posters chipping away at other posters experiences, feelings of unease etc. It's difficult to articulate but it's just a shift from NAMALT to women are just as bad so stop complaining. An almost subtle silencing.

OP posts:
Pumperthepumper · 19/10/2017 19:30

taratil this is the exact OP. You'll notice it doesn't mention at all mumsnet banning the use of NAMALT but in fact how it is being used as an 'almost subtle silencing'

I've been hanging around these here parts since Pom Bears were just a bizarre crisp but more and more I see posters chipping away at other posters experiences, feelings of unease etc. It's difficult to articulate but it's just a shift from NAMALT to women are just as bad so stop complaining. An almost subtle silencing.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 19/10/2017 19:32

taratill

I agree with pumper

Op says nothing about banning those phrases

Pumperthepumper · 19/10/2017 19:36

mittens that's truely awful Flowers and I really am sorry that you had to go through it.

I do believe that male- and female- committed violence are different topics for discussion though. I don't believe that either one is less serious than the other but I do believe they need to be approached differently. I do sincerely hope that this reply doesn't cause you offence, I am in no way trying to belittle your experience.

taratill · 19/10/2017 19:37

No she doesn't, I don't know why I thought she did. I think I was making the assumption she must want Mumsnet to stop it, but that's my assumption not what she said.

Apologies.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 19/10/2017 19:38

mittens

My mum was physically abused by nuns Thanks

Mittens1969 · 19/10/2017 19:43

Yes I concede it is different, HandbagKrabby, because what happens to me was child abuse, and actually boys are victims as often as girls, too.

But saying ‘women do it too’ is not minimising male violence as obviously men are perpetrators in the vast majority of cases. However, women are involved more often in enabling male violence more often than some feminists would like to believe.

Arealhumanbeing · 19/10/2017 19:44

Yes I think you’re right, OP.

Mittens1969 · 19/10/2017 19:46

I’m so sorry for what your mum went through, Rufustherenegadereindeer1, some awful things have been done in convents.

Arealhumanbeing · 19/10/2017 19:47

Anyone googling MRA sights should be a little bit careful.

If the idea is new to you then the content is extremely illuminating. However if you’ve been damaged by your experiences with men it could trigger PTSD type symptoms.

Don’t look at too much of it and don’t end up on it all night.

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 19/10/2017 19:50

Thank you mittens

Poor child went at 13 from an orphanage run by abusive nuns to one room slum housing with 3 brand new siblings and an abusive mum who blamed her daughter for all of her misfortunes

She was a lovely women herself though...

Arealhumanbeing · 19/10/2017 19:51

However, women are involved more often in enabling male violence more often than some feminists would like to believe.

I’m a feminist and that is not something I find at all difficult to believe.

I find it sad and it makes me extremely angry but the reasons that a woman would enable male violence are usually quite complex.

Mittens1969 · 19/10/2017 20:03

Yes I agree, Arealhumanbeing, as I’ve said. Sometimes it’s survival, I think. Or denial of what’s blatantly in front of their noses, like in my DM’s case. She says she doesn’t remember anything, but my DSis and I suspect it’s denial.

There was a priest involved at the school I was at, too, taratill, I have a very low opinion of boarding schools now.

Your mum sounds like a very special lady, Rufustherenegadereindeer1. Flowers

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 19/10/2017 20:06

Thank you mittens she was

Im sorry that your mum isn't helping you...her denial must have been very damaging for you

BertrandRussell · 19/10/2017 20:11

"However, women are involved more often in enabling male violence more often than some feminists would like to believe"

I'm a feminist and I would not be surprised at all. Women enable men's hideous behavior on many levels.

But saying things like that usually generates a cascade of people saying things like "i though women were supposed to be supportive of each other. That's why I'm not a feminist!"

Mittens1969 · 19/10/2017 20:30

I agree, BertrandRussell, nothing will ever change if women are at each other’s throats. I think I’m becoming more feminist as I get older, and especially since I’ve had DDs.

Arealhumanbeing · 19/10/2017 20:37

But saying things like that usually generates a cascade of people saying things like "i though women were supposed to be supportive of each other. That's why I'm not a feminist!"

Yes. The cascade will usually scrape the barrel for increasingly desperate and nonsensical reasons why they're, 'not a feminist'.

Like we've said. It's complicated!

BertrandRussell · 19/10/2017 22:46

"Like we've said. It's complicated"

But simultaneously incredibly simple.......

Arealhumanbeing · 19/10/2017 23:31

@BertrandRussel

Yes absolutely! Grin

It IS also infuriatingly incredibly simple.

pallisers · 20/10/2017 00:53

I think I’m becoming more feminist as I get older, and especially since I’ve had DDs.

God me too. I was always a standard feminist worked happily in a male dominated industry etc. etc. married an evolved decent man (who wouldn't need it explained to him why women might give him short shrift if he wanted to chat at midnight in a train station - mind you my slightly more unevolved 90 year old dad wouldn't have either). But I am becoming positively radical in my middle age. I've met and been mentored by fabulous men and am married to a gem but god it isn't easy for women. My dh will also say this - as something he has really come to comprehend in the past 10 years. Also of the 3 women in my home (2 under 17) only one has not been sexually assaulted - and I mean assaulted, not harassed.

Arealhumanbeing · 20/10/2017 01:49

Men as a group are a danger to women. No not our brothers, sons, partners and Fathers (we hope). But as a group, absolutely.

That has been my experience and the experience of most of the women I know. Although a good third of them are in denial.

That’s why I’m a feminist but it’s also why I have a crystal clear understanding of why so many women internalise the abuse, the sexism, the misogyny and the many many micro aggressions and daily incidences of mistreatment. I’ve heard it referred to as murder by a thousand paper cuts.

The lengths that one of the women in my circle went to to defend Harvey Weinstein last weekend was absolutely mystifying to watch.

The only time I really see her get upset during any discussion is when it turns to feminism/rape/sexism. She gets extremely agitated, her eyes come out on stalks and she will say literally anything to stop or derail the conversation. She feels absolutely terrible for men, if we’re calling HW an abuser then we’re saying the same thing about our Dad’s because ‘what if all these women said that about them’? THEN how would we feel?!!

Utter nonsense but something seems off and I worry that she’s hiding something awful.

bumbleymummy · 20/10/2017 07:25

I think using the term 'NAMALT' to refer to people is an attempt at silencing them because they have a different opinion.

MuseumOfCurry · 20/10/2017 07:34

The lengths that one of the women in my circle went to to defend Harvey Weinstein last weekend was absolutely mystifying to watch.

Really? On what basis was she defending him?

HandbagKrabby · 20/10/2017 07:36

It's an an abbreviation. Like ASAP.

What actually is silencing is when women talk about the violence of men, someone coming along and saying 'I have a husband/son, they're not rapists! Saying all men are rapists is wrong! It is more important that we spend lots of time assuring others that we like men than talking about the violence men commit.. You need to get some help for your issues.' I paraphrase, but I'm sure you can see it from this point of view?

Rufustherenegadereindeer1 · 20/10/2017 07:52

I dont think i have seen someone called a NAMALT. I have seen it used in its proper context

Im not saying its never happened but i would like a link

BertrandRussell · 20/10/2017 07:53

"I think using the term 'NAMALT' to refer to people is an attempt at silencing them because they have a different opinion."
Really? I use it in an attempt to cover the fact that I know not all men are like that, but that a significant number are. I am trying to save time and frustration- I don't think all men are rapists so prefacing my comments with NAMALT is intended to make that clear. But if there's a better way of saying that I'd be pleased to use it.