To think there is a group on MN deliberately trying to downplay the institutional oppression of women?

[PerryPerryThePlatypus]

I've been hanging around these here parts since Pom Bears were just a bizarre crisp but more and more I see posters chipping away at other posters experiences, feelings of unease etc. It's difficult to articulate but it's just a shift from NAMALT to women are just as bad so stop complaining. An almost subtle silencing.

All we are saying is 'speak to women in the same way you would a man'

Exactly what kryten said

But

Everytime we say it apparently we are saying that men should never talk to women

you don't speak for all women when you say men shouldn't speak to other women when out and about. (Which has been said, even if you refuse to see it.)

Noone has claimed to speak for all women. The would be silly. Even with the most obvious of statements, it would never be true of all women. For example me saying

All women would like to not be imprisoned in their lifetime
or
No woman ever wants to be in prison

Would be false, as there will be at least one woman, somewhere that does want to be in prison.

This thread has been pretty bizarre tbh, but thats to be expected on threads where male violence is discussed. Almost par for the course that there will be many many random posts to try and take attention from the fact that it is, generally, males that are the problem.

Noone has claimed to speak for all women

Not out and out, no, but what else would it be if suddenly males couldn't speak to females when out and about?
As you'd be kind of lumping all women into it to fit your own beliefs.

I think it is difficult because if you blanket ban 'women do it too' you're in danger of saying I don't want to listen to a particular point of view.

Exactly that. It's not allowing another point of view, and only one being acceptable.

Not out and out, no, but what else would it be if suddenly males couldn't speak to females when out and about?

But noone has claimed blokes shouldn't ever speak to females either. You said it had been said repeatedly on this thread by a few posters. However could only produce 2 examples of this, only one of which said anything about men never speaking to women, and that poster said she would personally prefer men to not talk to her, not that they should never speak to any women, which is completely different!

This is actually exhausting. But you claim that others are misunderstanding your/taras point on purpose.

Just out of interest can I ask... those of you who hold determined to the belief that men do not speak to each other, do you predominantly live in the South East of England? This is an interesting topic but I suspect attitudes and responses may be influenced by what is the socially accepted norm where you live. I'd put money on it that Scottish men are far less likely to be awkwardly ignoring each other! I appreciate that might sound a bit "ist" but the idea of studiously ignoring both men and women as standard is odd to me.

. However could only produce 2 examples of this

That was just two from several pages. I could have provided more but quite frankly what is the point in all that trawling as you're just not willing to listen.

flyingelbows Interesting point, and I was actually considering that myself!
I'm in the North. Men actually do talk to each other up here too.
They'd think nothing of saying to each other "ey up cock" and it wouldn't be an insult, just a greeting....
Maybe it's the Southern, eyes down, speak to no-one divide at play here lol

I could have provided more but quite frankly what is the point in all that trawling as you're just not willing to listen.

To the contrary, I would be very willing to listen as I have not seen anyone actually say whats being constantly argued against, and this is maybe why I cannot follow the thread. It seems the point thats being argued against is non-existant. Which is why I am so bloody baffed by how this point keeps coming up again and aghain...

It's literally impossible that all men would be banned from ever talking to women I don't know why you'd argue against it when it's both absurd and no one said it.

Someone saying morning is neither here nor there. If you see that as a conversation then perhaps that is where confusion lies - greeting someone like that to me is inconsequential. What I thought you meant were the men that insist on talking to you in a way they would not speak to a man and speak at length in a setting where you're potentially vulnerable. I can see why you think there's people like myself scowling at lovely Grandads saying hello on the school run and not comprehending why we'd do that if you're considering that a conversation. The example upthread about a cardigan is a good example.

But it's like trying to nail water on these threads most of the time.

North-East here, and men just do not speak to random men often at all (especially specifically approaching them for these random chats that apparently happen elsewhere). Only to women, and almost always in a 'nice tits love' kind of way. If it doesn't start like that, thats what it progresses to. And if the woman makes it very clear she is not intersted, it turns to abuse. So its really not about making friends, at all.

Someone saying morning is neither here nor there. If you see that as a conversation then perhaps that is where confusion lies - greeting someone like that to me is inconsequential. What I thought you meant were the men that insist on talking to you in a way they would not speak to a man and speak at length in a setting where you're potentially vulnerable.

Yup. Didn't realise these were the conversations spoke about either. Thats not a conversation to me and I wouldn't mind it and its fairly easy to ignore too (though ignoring a greeting from a man would also likely turn to abuse). Though I wouldn't like the 'love'

Good thread...

I can see why you think there's people like myself scowling at lovely Grandads saying hello on the school run and not comprehending why we'd do that if you're considering that a conversation.

OK, honestly trying not to be picky here, but I find your use of the phrase "scowling at lovely Grandads" quite interesting.
By Grandad's are those ones you don't perceive as a threat because they're benign ( imagined in a kind, friendly chat) way?
What about men say 20 - 30 years old, saying hello in passing, chatting about the weather?

I think it is difficult because if you blanket ban 'women do it too' you're in danger of saying I don't want to listen to a particular point of view.

That's not a point of view though, is it? It's a fact. Its a fact that's totally irrelevant to a discussion about male violence.

What about men say 20 - 30 years old, saying hello in passing, chatting about the weather?"

Absolutely fine- if they would do the same to a man.

You are being picky. I'm exaggerating what I believe to be your position for effect. No lovely grandads said hello to me on the school run. Nalgalt.

No lovely grandads said hello to me on the school run

I never said they did. I just find it interesting that you straight away chose Grandads (which conjures up images of Werthers Originals and slippers and cute chit chat) - what about other men saying it to you? Younger ones?

At least kryten had a sense of humour. You're changing the subject

And tbf you could be a grandfather in your 30s

For the eleventy billion time

The vast vast majority of posters have no problem talking to any men of any age as long as its something they would say to another man

So a non gendered conversation

*I think it is difficult because if you blanket ban 'women do it too' you're in danger of saying I don't want to listen to a particular point of view.

That's not a point of view though, is it? It's a fact. Its a fact that's totally irrelevant to a discussion about male violence.*

No it’s not entirely irrelevant. I’m one of the ones who said that. I was abused by a woman as a child, my headteacher who was also a nun. So sadly it is relevant.

But I have also clarified that I think women who abuse were themselves victims of male violence. For example, women become sex traffickers, but they were originally forced into prostitution themselves. Victims becoming perpetrators.

Sorry, we can’t pretend it’s black and white, and it’s part of the discussion.

I think you can have a conversation about male violence without having to make reference to female violence. It's a different conversation I think because it will be different and perhaps although there will be overlap there will be many differences that might get lost in a more general discussion. I'm very sorry for what happened to you.

pumper no it's not, that is not the intention of the OP nor is it what my comment is made in respect of. It is a thread about whether it is appropriate for MUMSNET to stop 'NAMALT' or 'Women are just as bad comments'.

That is what my statement is in relation to.
Part of the thread has become about male violence but I wasn't talking about that part I was answering a specific point raised by the OP

mittens my DH was at a school where children were systematically abused by priests. He wasn't but many were.

Horrific, that people in such a position of trust could do that to children in their care.